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Was the event of 9/11 America's fault?
For some time now I have been thinking about the events that have lead up to 9/11. I can't seem to find an entirely legitimate source that explains what America wanted with the Middle East.
I think the U.S. is partially accountable for the 9/11 attacks. Obviously, the extremists themselves are accountable as well and this is in no way a dismissal of that. However, U.S. actions abroad created a culture in which anti-Westernism and anti-Americanism were easy agendas to push. Extremism and terrorism do not require that their targets be popularly perceived as antagonistic threats, but it certainly does help.
Your correct, we are the targets chosen by radical Islamic terrorists because we where in the way of their attacks on freedom.
We were chosen as targets by radical Islamic terrorists because we are the most powerful Western nation in the world with a very far reaching history of invading countries in the Middle East with our military and otherwise bypassing their national and regional autonomy. We have stood in violation of freedom in that region in our own way, and it is that very violation that has allowed extremists to obtain the power and resources necessary to carry out attacks like this one.
AS IF, the USA wrote the Quran. AS IF, the Shea / Sunni wars have not raged for hundreds of years.
They have, and notably until our intervention in the region we were not subject to attacks like that of 9/11. We did not create the original conflict, but our heavy-handed actions in the region altered the landscape of that conflict and made us a target.
AS IF, we should let them have their caliphate, and hope they stop "Over There"
I never said that we should, nor is this remotely responsive to my point that being viewed as an antagonist makes us unsympathetic and facilitates support for attacks against us.
We were chosen as targets by radical Islamic terrorists because we are the most powerful Western nation in the world with a very far reaching history of invading countries in the Middle East with our military and otherwise bypassing their national and regional autonomy.
IMO we were chosen as targets by radical Islamic terrorists because they are radical Islamic terrorists.
There was no 9/11 style attack during or after the Vietnam war, nor the Korean war, nor was Bosnia a cause for a 9/11 style attack on the UN building in New York. Why --- no radical Islamic terrorists.
Would not your logic have kept us out of WWII in Europe, because well Nazis were bad and might get mad and attack us back.
I'm probably going to learn something from you that I don't know about our history in the middle east, but then that's part of why I'm debating on this site.
I think that what distinguishes Vietnam, Korea, Bosnia, and WWII is primarily that these were all very geo-centric and tied to nation-state entities whereas the present conflict with Islamic extremists is inherently non-geo-centric. These conflicts also centered around national identities, whereas Islamic extremism obviously focuses upon religious identity which renders it capable of engaging sympathies in more nations more readily. These other conflicts also lacked the cyber heavy aspect that current Islamic extremist organizations have utilized. This is not a traditional war or combat situation, which explains why some of our tried and true tactics are no longer working so effectively.
Historically, U.S. military interventions have been more limited than our other forms of intervention until rather recently. When I referenced invasions I was speaking to the 1999 Invasion of Iraq by a US led coalition, the 2003 Iraq invasion, and the War in Afghanistan (2001-2014), and also to some extent to our alleged military support of Israel during the Six Days War. Even if you could argue that this constitutes a limited military history in a region nowhere proximate to us geographically, it is worth bearing in mind that that this list does not include military engagements such as the 1993 missile attack on Iraq or our consistent military stationing throughout multiple decades (e.g. Marines barracks in Lebannon circa 1980s, coastal presence circa 2000s, etc.).
Add to this our extensive history of supplying arms to the region beginning in the 1950s (and including sales to Iran in 1986 to fund our interventions in Latin America), of backing of various coups since the 1940s, of economic sanctions and trade bans from the 1990s on, financial investment in various nations and groups since at least the 1970s, high-fatality accidents such as shooting down a passenger plane in 1988 and killing 290 people, our persistent support for Israel even when it was clearly in the wrong (e.g. 1976 UN vote against Israel for war crimes where U.S. was sole "no" vote), and a practice of switching sides and damaging groups and nations (e.g. the Kurdish rebels trajectory 1960-1975 that gave way to current division, our support for and then opposition to Saddam Hussein, our support for and then opposition to Iran, etc.)... all of that, and you can begin to see where it would be rather easy (and not entirely unfair) to cast us in a negative light.
Can you reasonably assert that we have been aggressors. Has the accusation that we were taking either country for purposes of domination, been shown to be true. Were we not in every case acting with either noble objective or within the interests of our allies or our own national interests. Can you justify 9/11 in terms of our own actions --- I think no. 9/11 occurred for the first time in our history because Islamic terrorists attacked and killed over 3,000 civilians on purpose. Where have we done anything that compares or justifies such a slaughter of innocents.
My point is entirely non-reliant upon proving that the U.S. actually acted as an aggressor. As the adage goes, the best lies are based on truth. That the U.S. has such an extensive history of intervention in the Middle East is more than adequate basis from which to construct a representation of the U.S. as an aggressor. This does not make that representation accurate or fair, nor does it make the consequent actions (e.g. 9/11) justified; what it does do and what ultimately matters most is that it does make that representation and those actions possible.
We all know that middle eastern cultures were primitive and violent hundreds of years before the US even existed
The same could arguably be said of Europe as well, but that is neither here nor there with regards to my argument. Whatever the Middle East used to be when the U.S. began its interventions it still stands as a matter of fact that the U.S. intervened. This intervention has made pushing an anti-American agenda rather easy.
Are you then saying we should not be involved in the middle east, because they can get mad at us a do and 9/11?
Jace you can't say that our presence in the region is fomenting hatred, without saying we shouldn't be there in the roles we have played. When noble effort creates hatred, noble effort remains unchanged. There is no comparison between US involvement in the region and what ISIS is doing. Distortions of this truth used as recruiting tools are simply a part of what must be changed. While your point exists in a causality sence, I do not believe it is relevant to what must be done.
Many of our interventions in the Middle East have been flagrantly in pursuit of our self-interests and not infrequently at the express detriment of the region. You may call that "noble" if you like, but I prefer to see it without ascribing such arbitrary moral airs to it. The U.S. is a nation, and it is in the nature and function of nations to act in their own interest. Arguably, had the U.S. failed to act upon the opportunity of energy exploitation in the region other nations would have done so and benefited in such a way as to put the U.S. at a relative disadvantage threatening our own power and autonomy.
While U.S. interventions may be entirely defensible under such rationale, that does not render them devoid of undesired consequences. Virtually every action a government can take will have costs as well as benefits, and in this case the largely unforeseen and certainly undesired consequence has been the rise of radical Islam. It is not a coincidence that ISIS and other groups like it have levied accusations of oppression and aggression against the U.S. and other Western powers that have intervened in the region for hundreds of years now (as opposed to, say, China or India, etc.). Our involvement in the region, however you want to justify or defend it, has made us an easy target for the ISIS campaign. ISIS may have distorted the truth, but we gave them a ready basis from which to do it.
We cannot abide ISIS not only because of its hostility towards ourselves and our allies, but because we still rely upon access to the resources in that region. The question is not whether we should intervene, but how. My advocacy is that our interests are best served by acting behind the scenes rather than putting our own military on the ground in these countries. Doing the latter only gives ISIS more fodder for their campaign, however incorrect their representation may be. The former allows us to continue our influence by supporting existing regimes more beneficial to our interests, and it can take many forms - intel, financing, equipment, training, etc. - that are harder to twist into acts of open aggression.
With respect to there being no comparison between US involvement and what ISIS is doing, since causality connects us to the very rise of ISIS itself we bear at least some culpability for the damage this group and its predecessors have brought upon the region.
In the 13th century, the Persians were attacked by Genghis Khan and the Mongols. Two events precipitated that war. One was the Persians attacking a Mongol caravan, claiming it contained spies, and then refusing to give the Mongols their booty back. The other was when Shah Ala ad-Din Muhammad had a group of three Mongolian ambassadors attacked (one was beheaded).
Did these events trigger the war? Probably. Did these events somehow make the bloody massacre of hundreds of thousands of Persians their own fault? No. The Mongols are the ones who chose to brutally slaughter innocents.
Sort of, "fault" implies "cause", but not vice-versa, in the same way that "duck" implies "bird", but "bird" doesn't imply "duck".
You could tell a doctor to administer type B blood to a type A patient who is incapacitated due to blood loss. The doctor was at least part of the cause of death, as was the donor, etc
What other criteria is there that the USA doesn't meet?
For fault, or for cause?
We seem to agree on what the "cause" (the tangible component) already is, and "fault" is just a matter of opinion.
Not exactly. Causation is a key comment in establishing liability. There is no liability without it (in almost all cases...).
That's not the point that I'm arguing against. I understand that you need causation to establish blame, but my point is that causation doesn't necessitate blame.
So you can't substantiate why you feel it is not the USAs fault even though there is causation...
Or, I didn't, and you're assuming that I can't.
Perhaps because it's stupid to blame an entire nation of 300 million for something that most citizens did not have a meaningful say in?
That's not the point that I'm arguing against. I understand that you need causation to establish blame, but my point is that causation doesn't necessitate blame.
If I understand correctly, your point is that multiple parties may be causal agents but not all may be to blame. If this is indeed your argument, then I would press you on the following: upon what basis do we differentiate which causal agents are to blame and which are not if causality is not itself the determining variable?
I'd have to say that the point of having acknowledged at least a high risk of causing a rough equal of the following event, and then knowingly putting forth a risk of such a thing happening that outweighs the reward, either by malice or personal gain; with whatever is constituting "high" being relative to the other outcomes available.
That would render negligence non-faultable, which seems problematic to me. By that rationale, one could absolve oneself of blame simply by not thinking through the consequences and doing what was immediately most gratifying or self-serving.
Again, thanks. This is an excellent peer review. Couldn't we just divide up my definition as being the circumstances for fault outside of omission, and then have a second lead of fault by omission?
I am not sure I follow. Are you suggesting that fault be assigned to differing degrees based on whether effects were deliberately induced or the consequence of negligence?
No, I'm suggesting that fault by omission and fault by submission each be measured in their own degrees, and that my definition of "fault" is better suited for blame by submission.
Thank you for the clarification. I wonder, though, why we should prefer your definition since it seems to subjugate fault of omission to fault of submission (and rather disproportionately in my opinion).
You guys are getting all hung up on causality not necessarily fixing blame.
Look at the following:
Nobel cause -vs- evil. The US involvement in the middle east has been for noble cause. The fact that twisted ideologies view it otherwise does not change that.
Some of our involvement in the middle east has been for a noble cause. Other times, it was far from it. Our actions in Iran were some of the least noble in recent U.S. history, for example.
Resolving the relationship of causality to fault must necessarily precede the assignation of fault. If you are not interested in that particular aspect of the debate you need not engage in it, but I hardly see your criticism as valid refutation of our discussion.
No. The 'deliberate' slaughter of over 3000 innocent civilians and the unprecedented destruction was the act of deranged religious zealots whose psychopathic hated for the west was the exclusive reason for 9/11. The U.S, had, and continues to attempt to stabilize the various ''hysterical'' dictatorships of the Middle East and give some degree of democracy to the long suffering people of that region. That area is the biggest open air lunatic asylum in the world and the task of achieving even a vestige of normality was beyond the capabilities of the United States and it's allies. I find this question, and some of it's answers amusing as I see many rants about the ''unacceptable inaction of the weak, indecisive President Obama'' when he fails to send in the Marines and the B52s every time the I.S. filth carry out one of their atrocities. America is damned if they react to aggression and damned if they don't.