I didn't know about all of this but it is indeed interesting! Thank you :)

And I also find it funny how murder is a sin yet whole wars are created due to religion and the soldiers can come home and be washed clean of their sin. So you can murder thousands of people for worshipping a different god and it's all good as long as you go to confession but if you prevent one pocket of stem cells from becoming a conscious child all of the sudden it's "straight to hell for you". I'm fine with people being religious and having faith but the moment you try to interfere with the lives of others based on your contradicting beliefs I'm gonna have to say something

I didn't think this needed clarification but, when I say "living" or "alive" I'm not using those words in a way you would call a plant alive. Unless you want to stop the cutting down of "living" trees and stop the killing of "living" completely then act like you know what I'm talking about. I'm talking about consciousness, see my vegetative state argument (see how we've come full circle in this debate. Also your "doctors all agree" link didn't work so I can't properly argue whatever it said

Also I really wouldn't care if I was aborted because I wouldn't have known I. For the "throughout history" quote I think every rational person knows these are different circumstances. Scientifically colored people are not inferior to whites but whites made up logic to make it so. Yet scientifically fetuses are not actual people with actual thoughts yet and you can't murder what isn't dead.

As for the last paragraph I could say the same to you, accept that a fetus isn't a human yet or deny it.

Since I can't bold I'll use numbers to address each point

1. Call it however you want but the stem cells in the womb before that all important week is not living and it doesn't care that it's being aborted. It's not being mirdered. It's not losing life it's never getting it. There is potential life and that's what thi is. If you don't want to accept facts and still think the baby has hurt feelings over this I can't really say much to change your mind.

2. I'm NOT declaring a baby not human. Stem cells are not human, they're not a baby, they have no brain. I do however consider humans to be humans because well, they are. You are the one looking at this philosophically by calling it a baby. Scientifically it's not. It's cells. The cells could become anything but naturally become a baby. If directed they could become a liver so stop calling it a baby.

3. You're still acting with belief stem cells are a baby what can I say. Also, who cares about sin? I may be an atheist but look, if it's a "sin" to have an abortion THEN DON'T HAVE ONE. But some people AKA a lot of people don't subscribe to your beliefs and shouldn't be subjected to them. Separation of church and state. Mormons dot believe in drinking alcohol but hey! It's not illegal to drink alcohol. If you're only argument is religious and belief base with no science then you have no basis to push your belief system on the rest of Americans.

4. Umm I said can't even be pinpointed so I'm hmm 101% sure I meant can't even be pinpointed. Later I have some examples of contributors but there are a huge amount of contributing factors and abortion is probably not one of them at least to the mass public. Maybe to some religious people but generally people view it as science. You can't scientifically make a human not a human but you can scientifically look at a fetus as not a human because it's just a pocket of cells. I'm not gonna reason myself into murder is my point, reasonable abortion on the other hand-totally possible.

5. Separation of church and state. Church also means beliefs. You may believe it's immoral but in every factual and scientific way it's not so either prove something or protest by not getting abortions.

6. Moral to you. See 5.

7. Immorality to you. See 5.

Pro-choice people like myself do not like abortions. Please don't be confused. They are not a thing to be taken lightly. Yet they should not be illegal. And it's not just people who make bad choices, condoms fail, birth control fails. And I argue so strongly when life begins because it's the difference between murder and pulling out some stem cells from an unwilling incubator. I'll stop the natural process of life all I want because in the end if no one is harmed (not the mother, and there's no child to e harmed) then there is no immoral wrongdoing. Every egg in me could turn into a kid and that zygote could turn into a kid. They all could but in the end the mother can choose to use birth control to stop an egg from living and she can choose to use abortion to stop the zygote from living. You're protecting someone who isn't even alive yet over the interests of the mother who is. And why? Because all women who wan abortions are white trash idiots who get 10 a year and just don't like condoms? I don't know what you imagine these women to be like but they are perfectly normal smart women in many cases who just happen to have either made a bad decision or their protection failed. If you've never made a bad decision go ahead and judge but otherwise keep it to science.

As for sex selective abortions that is a WHOLE other argument. Personally that sounds completely wrong and abuse of the surgery but if it's before the 22nd week it's not murder. There's also DNA designers who can adjust the DNA of the baby to be whatever you like, gender, eye color, hair color, etc. This is bad too but the technology could also be used to prevent Down syndrome and other debilitations that many struggle their whole life with. Most things are good but people will find a way to abuse them anyway, it's how humans work. And in countries like china they would kill their baby if it turned out to be the wrong gender because of the one baby rule. In the womb or out it's horrible but at least it's painless in the womb. And if countries have a problem with an unbalanced gender population and have trouble keeping the population up that might not be so bad seeing as the world is overcrowded and reaching carrying capacity anyhow. In the end the populations will balance theirselves out to survive but if reproduction decreases for a few decades it's not the worst thing in the world

Life does start at the womb after the brain becomes active around the 22nd week. It does not, however, start at conception.

People don't see human life as disposable because of abortion. If I were to get an abortion I would not see it as the disposable of a life but rather the prevention of it. Where as murdering someone would be ending a life that has already begun. Most people who get abortions have the same view. The moral of this generation is changing due to x amount of things that can't even begin to be pinpointed. If abortion became illegal there would be plenty of women taking desperate actions that could harm themself and the baby if they attempt it too late in the pregnancy. You can't make laws people don't believe in, look at the prohibition. It was illegal to drink but there wasn't a snowball's chance in hell that was stopping anyone. Make abortions illegal and all you have is dangerous black market abortions. Society gonna continue to get crappy and not because of abortion, because of TV and video games and bad role models like Justin Bieber.

Due to separation of church and state I really don't know what my or anyone else's beliefs have to do with abortion laws. It should be a matter of science not faith. But to let you know I am an atheist.

In every sense of the term a fetus is brain dead to a certain point in the pregnancy. There is no brain activity=brain dead. Unlike people in a vegetative state they will become "brain alive" for lack of a better term but my point in all this is fetuses pre-22nd week are NOT BEING MURDERED. If it has never been alive it cannot be murdered therefor abortion is not murder it is however the disruption of the egg's development. Like I said in another dispute condoms and abstinence also interfere with the egg developing. You could say "well an egg has never been alive so it's different" but a fetus has never been alive either. It might be closer to life but it's still not there

I'm not talking about political or spiritual ideologies. I'm talking about scientific facts. When people are brain dead they are scientifically legally dead. Doctors can take them off life support and face no legal action ie murder charges. They wouldn't do this unless they were absolutely sure the patient was dead. Fetuses pre-22nd week are for all intents and purposes brain dead and the doctors are not in fact killing them they are simply stopping the process from progressing. Just as a condom prevents it from progressing or abstinence stops it from progressing.

Thank you for addressing my first argument but again I have to clarify. These people I am referencing when I say "vegetative state" are not terminally ill. They are legally dead http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_death see brain death. They are not letting nature take it's course because it has already happened. Once their brain is dead they're dead. You can't knowingly or purposefully kill people that aren't already dead in hospitals without being charged for murder. So when the brain is inactive there is no life and that means fetuses have no life until the 22nd week. You are protecting potential life over actual life. All the eggs in my ovaries have potential life but they have no rights just as a fetus should have no rights before the 22nd week.

I understand that you're against abortion which is an option in this debate but the controversy of abortion I'm trying to discuss in this particular debate is whether pro-lifers can support the argument that life begins at conception with science, facts, and or logic that disputes my vegetative state argument.

I'm saying we're debating a sub topic because abortion is such a huge issue. I should've been more clear when making the debate but I actually wanted to get to all aspects of the abortion argument but no one has sufficiently argued against my first point with and factual or logical evidence and I would rather not move on until that happens because it's one of the core arguments of pro-lifers.

And I still don't see your point with crime and legal abortion correlations.