Haha, alright calm down. I'll stick to the subject.............

Hahaha...I'm pretty sure most Chicanos have more important things to worry about than attacking gays who decide to get married.

Look at California. There are plenty of Mexicans and plenty of gay people there, yet I haven't seen any lynchings.

Yeah that's partly what happened with blacks in California with prop 8. So how about we hold off on this plan until we get a supreme court decision that guarantees gays the right to marry. Sound good?

This is the first one of your debates I have agreed with Joe. You've stumbled upon a great idea. I have one addition though:

Since illegals apparently hate Mexico (they'd do anything to leave after all), we should get more Mexicans in the U.S. Now all we have to do is find a large number of Mexicans who want to live in the U.S. Any ideas where we could find that Señor?

Faith is belief in that which there is no evidence for. How can your faith strengthen by arguing...wouldn't argument cause you to be more secure in your logical understanding of religion, making faith less necessary?

What do atheists struggle with?

No, you did not invent the media stereotype.

Of course not, but I had something very specific in mind when I said media stereotype.

Is there something more profound in rap than I am missing?

There is in the song I was referring to, and numerous other songs. I'd be happy to give some examples and explain why there is more.

Also there are plenty of good rappers who aren't black... you are aware of this right?

Yes, maybe he should. I'm sure it would be much more popular. It doesn't matter. Everything loses its authenticity when misheard.

Most people who listen to his music don't mishear what he said. It's not difficult to understand if you try and listen a little.

If you go into a song expecting to dislike it, then probably you won't hear the lyrics right.

Why do you need to know this?

I don't, just curious. If you're not comfortable telling me then no worries.

That joke was funny when I heard it the first time.

But if you want to steal jokes and base whole debates off them, I guess I can't stop you.

Ughhhh...I'm not getting into another argument about liberals with you. I give up, you are beyond reasoning with.

Congrats on finding the only people on earth who think Nickelback are better than the Beatles. I may have taken their position more seriously though if they spelled Nickelback right.

I've already argued with EnigmaticMan, I don't plan on doing it twice. If you have any original opinions present them. Otherwise don't waste my time.

Rap is becoming common to use as background noise in film...

Sorry if I don't consider you knowledgeable because you heard it in a couple movies.

Definition of "song"

Semantics...you know what I meant.

Is that not what rap is?

Here is throat-singing. I actually saw a pretty cool documentary about it. I'm still of the opinion that it sounds awful though.

But that makes a world of difference...

And I like the way that they are delivered...love it in fact. My only point was that since we obviously aren't going to agree on that, we should concentrate on something that is less reliant on subjective musical tastes.

Then why doesn't the radio play better songs?

Ask the people who own the radio stations. A lot of time popular opinion of songs is pretty bad. People don't always want to listen to music with intellectual meanings, but would rather hear someone talking about their gold studded teeth.

Ice T

He was pretty good back in the day. No one of my favorites though.

If you are interested in listening to a couple rap songs I consider good, I also posted Get By by Talib Kweli. Or don't if you don't want to.

I did. I liked it, somewhat; however, EnigmaticMan had a terrific response to your interpretation.

Once again, get an original opinion about the song, or my interpretation of it and we can talk.

The most meaningful lyrics, if badly written, are of little value.

Fortunately "Dumb it Down" is written amazingly well.

Well, then my interpretation of media stereotype is better.

Your interpretation of what I said is better than my own...okay, sure.

As am I.

Black rapper, and drumbeat...real deep analysis.

Honestly, that was very unintelligent. I could barely understand the lyrics, and furthermore, I did catch multiple swear words (which undoubtedly fits the media stereotype of rap).

If you want the lyrics, here they are.

The swearing you heard was satirical. Lupe wasn't the one swearing, but instead it was another rapper who was supposed to represent mainstream rap.

If you actually tried to understand the song next time then maybe I wouldn't have to sit you down like a child and explain it to you.

Well congratulations to Lupe! Unfortunately, I could not understand half of what he said, so in actuality, it was rather pointless.

Maybe he should make it into a sing-a-long with the words at the bottom and a bouncing ball. Would you understand it then? Probably not? Well, I don't know if I can help you there.

Out of curiosity what type of music do you like?

Short and distilled for your pleasure.

First:

You've convinced me, New York is a very well written song with meanings that are beyond superficial. I did about a poor a job interpreting that as you did with "Dumb it Down."

2nd:

The first fact does nothing to diminish how well written "Dumb it Down is"

3rd

Funny you should criticize "Dumb it Down" for being based on culture when "New York" does the same.

4th

If you are bigoted against blacks and black culture then I guess there is nothing I can say that will convince you that good music can be produced from these people.

5th

While the lyrics of many rappers are meaningless, I don't use this as an excuse to throw out the whole genre. Were this the case then there would likely be few genres I could listen to.

6th

Free-styling is when someone plays a beat and someone raps to it without anything written down beforehand. It's like improv, but with rap.

7th

I laughed when you said that "All Along the Watchtower" was your first choice. At least we have some common ground.

8th

I enjoy the music of other cultures, even if I don't fully understand them. I've listened to cuban hip-hop, Mexican rock, french techno and a million other things that I enjoy. If we isolate ourselves within our own culture then things can get boring. I try not to be so arrogant as to assume that my own culture is the best.

If I missed any important points that you wanted me to address just bring them up in your response to this.

Also, send me a link to your debate with maholinder if you don't mind. I'd be happy to see your scientific arguments against global warming.

I think you misinterpreted what I meant by media stereotype.

I was talking not about the style of music, but the content. In the media rap is often portrayed as womanizing, violent and unintelligent. I was giving examples of rappers whose lyrics do not fall into this category. Lupe's song actually is criticizing those rappers who make music that is misogynistic and unintelligent.

You seriously need to buy a dictionary/actually pay attention to my arguments. I didn't generalize anyone, except maybe people who think Nickelback is better than the Beatles. These people need a fork stabbed in their ear. There I said it, so sue me. I'm not sure how this counts as a generalization since I'm not actually sure there are any people who hold the opinion that the Beatles were less talented than Nickelback. There are certainly people who would rather listen to Nickelback, but this isn't what I was saying (try to keep up).

So you are saying that the only way in which one cannot like the lyrics is to not understand them? I read EnigmaticMan's dispute, and agreed with it for the most part. I just don't like rap, regardless of the meaning.

No, my point was that you Terminator, don't understand the lyrics. Not people in general, not people who like this or that music, but you. Go ahead an prove me wrong if you want.

I also don't care one way or another if you like to listen to the music. Like I said to enigmaticman, I don't like classical music but Beethoven was clearly a very good artist, and I am not going to take that away from him just because I don't like to listen to his songs.

I've heard rap before. There was even a tune or two which I thought of as "catchy". I daren't venture any further, though; the overall quality is heinous to say the least.

As I've had to explain a hundred times in this debate, I don't care about "catchy" tunes. For all that it matters to this argument they could have been throat-singing while scraping their nails on the chalkboard. I was arguing about the lyrics, not the way in which they are delivered.

As far as the majority of the genre in this respect, you may have a point if you are talking about the stuff on the radio. That's why I provided good examples of rap, and didn't just say rap in general.

Perhaps I did try, but simply not in writing on this site?

Or perhaps you didn't? Why do you phrase it as a question. You know whether you did or didn't and if you did and I was wrong then show me...or even easier, look at my interpretation (since I already agree with it) and argue either a) why you think I'm wrong about this interpretation or b) why I'm right, but the song still sucks. This is pretty straightforward...I've already done all the work, and if you continue along your current trend so has enigmaticman since you're just going to repeat whatever he said.

Define "good".

Well we're talking about lyrics, so meaningful would be a good word to use. And I mean that in multiple ways.