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Debate Info

40
68
Pro: More freedoms Cons: Same or less freedoms
Debate Score:108
Arguments:72
Total Votes:115
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 Pro: More freedoms (27)
 
 Cons: Same or less freedoms (43)

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First Amendment Freedoms In School: APGOV 2016

Should students (K- 12) possess more "freedoms" than are currently provided? (i.e freedom of press, religion, expression, petition, and assembly). What evidence from previous or current cases do you have to support your answer? What is the extent of freedom that students should have in public schools? 

Pro: More freedoms

Side Score: 40
VS.

Cons: Same or less freedoms

Side Score: 68
3 points

What about the recent Texas cheerleaders Supreme Court case (see: http://cnsnews.com/blog/mark-judge/texas-supreme-court-rules-8-0-favor-cheerleaders-biblical-banners). .) The Texas Supreme Court ruled in favor of the cheerleaders to use biblical messages on their banners. Don't these cheerleaders deserve religious freedom in school as long as their voice is their own?

Side: Pro: More freedoms
meghanharger(3) Disputed
4 points

The use of religious messages on cheerleaders’ banners is technically not using their own voice. A school cheerleading team is sponsored by the school, and therefore any religion-affiliated material used on banners or other propaganda is sponsored by the school. In the 2000 Supreme Court case ‘Santa Fe Independent School District v. Doe,’ the court reasoned that even if prayers at football games were student led, they were still said over loudspeakers owned by the school; the school was giving them permission to publicly say prayers, which violates the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. In a somewhat similar case, ‘Hazelwood v. Kuhlmeier,’ the school newspaper had two articles removed due to the fact that the school sponsored the newspaper, and the articles associated with it were assumed to have reflected the opinions of the school in general. Using the reasonings from these two cases, the school cheerleaders are being sponsored by the school and most likely using school supplies to make the banners, so therefore, it is a form of school sponsored prayer if they use religious messages on their banners.

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
3 points

While I do not particularly like the logic Meghan is using in her argument, it is something a lawyer would say and probably win the case, therefore I agree with her. Using this specific logic of technicality, the cheerleaders are indeed violating the first amendment of OTHERS. Since freedom of speech and expression are part of the first amendment, one would assume the cheerleaders have the right to say whatever they want in their banners. However this cannot be so, since the freedom of religion and expression of others are being infringed, since they may not want to be "forced upon" religion as the school and cheerleaders are doing to other people.

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
meaganfolmar(4) Disputed
2 points

The sue of religious messages on banners could be seen as silent speech or symbolism. In a similar situation, in Johnson v. Texas, Johnson burned the American flag to represent his strong beliefs and the supreme court sided with him due to his right to freedom of speech. Cheerleaders having religious messages is similar since these religious symbols how important this belief is to them. The difference between the cheerleaders and Johnson is that simply having religious messages won't offend someone (people might disagree since they believe religion has no place in school) since religious messages will merely reflect a person's individual beliefs, not infringe on the beliefs of others. "God is good" can reflect someone's perspective towards religion but saying "My God is better than your God" is highly offensive since it demeans the religion of others (People can bring up atheists being offended but not believing in a god does not constitute as a religion). Additionally, it is a pick and choose system on cases that are picked for religion in schools; it should be all or nothing. Religion or no religion. There can be confusion since people can say that cheerleaders showing religious messages is offensive while students are simultaneously required to say the Pledge of Allegiance everyday "under God." Since this is the case, schools are technically already sponsoring "school prayer" every single morning so why not allow cheerleaders to express their individual beliefs (granted that they are bringing down other beliefs. Showing your devotion as a Christian will not demean the religion of Islam, unless that person said derogatory remarks I mentioned other. Additionally, individual cheerleaders having religious symbols won't necessarily reflect the views of the school. School is meant to be a safe environment so there would be censors for offensive symbols. For example, a person wearing a Nazi symbol would face repercussions since that political symbol stands for the destruction of other races/religions and would consequently disrupt learning. But a person wearing a Doctor Who shirt doesn't mean the school administration are Doctor Who fans but they allow it since 1. it allows freedom of speech/expression 2. it's not offensive 3. it does not disrupt learning. Religious messages are similar in message since they reflect personal identity and that it stands for a person's belief in one/multiple god(s). So a school to allow religious messages 1. uphold freedom of speech 2. aren't offensive 3. promotes the idea of supporting students of various religious/political/racial backgrounds.

Side: Pro: More freedoms
2 points

There are many reasons to expand the freedoms which students already have, such as the importance of understanding real world problems. Students should be able to discuss their personal matters, if they so choose to, because different points of view could enlighten them on what to do. In Hazelwood School District v. Kuhlmeier, two articles were taken out of a school paper because they dealt with divorce and pregnancies. Although the student did not go about the best ways to report on those two subjects, the two articles should not be simply taken out of the paper because the topics are controversial. Students need to be able to discuss controversial issues that they could face later in life. Even if they do not end up dealing with the issues, it is always good to have an open-minded idea on what other people are facing. There should, of course, be more religious freedom in schools. In Abington School District v. Schempp, it was ruled that there could not be a Bible verse reading at the beginning of the school day because it is considered school sponsored which violates the Establishment Clause. Therefore, the increase in religious freedom would be increasing between students only and not be run by school staff.

Side: Pro: More freedoms
2 points

In the Wisconsin v. Yoder case I do see where there needs to be more religious freedoms. This is where children were forced to go to school, but they believed differently due to their culture. It was just the way of life that they are taught by the family and raised in their religion and their beliefs. Their point of view was that their children needed to focus on something they were going to be doing in their culture rather than the things they were teaching in a public school. So now law is conflicting with a way of life which poses controversy.

Side: Pro: More freedoms
2 points

Hunter, I agree with what you have to say. I think people should be able to pursue self interest based on their culture despite laws on attendance for public schools.

Side: Pro: More freedoms
Amorgan3(4) Disputed
1 point

I agree with the fact that religions should be able to be expressed to set themselves up for a future within their culture. However, this practice can be done after school which may be only a few more years. This would allow people many more options if they decide they don't want to continue to pursue their traditional cultural ways and make changes in their lives. Also, having more knowledge would get you a step ahead and you can use that knowledge to find better ways to express your religion.

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
JuanVargas98 Disputed
1 point

It is true that religions should be able to be expressed, even the first amendment says that. But if you think about the "obscurantism" that is implied when you don't let others know more of what you know, or vice versa, you realize that If you are able to practice your religion and see how others practice their religions, then you will develop a concept of what It is like to express a different opinion, and once you see another point of view, you question yourself about which point of view is better, so you think about It and develop a critical view of what is different. Seeing different things with different points of view is one way of acquiring knowledge that is not taught in school, but that you will learn If you get more individual freedoms that aloud things like school prayer or religion.

Side: Pro: More freedoms
2 points

The question concerning education essentially boils down to this idea - what is deemed necessary for the students to learn about in school? If there was a simple solution to this question, then there would be no more questions about academic v non-academic, sequiter v non sequiter. Sadly, there is no simple solution, as we live in an ever-changing world with ever-changing situations. in my opinion, everything in this world is relevant to the students in school. Does teen pregnancy happen? Yes (see Kuhlmeyer v Hazelwood)! Do teens do drugs? Yes (New Jersey v TLO)! Do some people have differing religions that may affect their education? Yes (Yoder v Wisconsin)! To deprive students to learn about any of these subjects would be depriving them of possibly relevant subject matter, which would deprive from their education as a whole. After all, school is a place where kids are supposed to be able to learn about the real world without having to experience it. Don't send kids into the world blind, let them have rights.

Side: Pro: More freedoms
2 points

The question concerning education essentially boils down to this idea - what is deemed necessary for the students to learn about in school? If there was a simple solution to this question, then there would be no more questions about academic v non-academic, sequiter v non sequiter. Sadly, there is no simple solution, as we live in an ever-changing world with ever-changing situations. in my opinion, everything in this world is relevant to the students in school. Does teen pregnancy happen? Yes (see Kuhlmeyer v Hazelwood)! Do teens do drugs? Yes (New Jersey v TLO)! Do some people have differing religions that may affect their education? Yes (Yoder v Wisconsin)! To deprive students to learn about any of these subjects would be depriving them of possibly relevant subject matter, which would deprive from their education as a whole. After all, school is a place where kids are supposed to be able to learn about the real world without having to experience it. Don't send kids into the world blind, let them have rights.

Side: Pro: More freedoms
2 points

One of the controversial subject matters regarding rights in schools is the dress code. The dress code deals with the rights of expression and freedom of speech. I will be blunt on this issue - if a student feels comfortable enough to wear an outfit into public, why force them to change because a select few in the school administrative department don't like their choice of clothes? In the real world, you cannot tell someone to change their outfit just because you don't like it or because you think it is distracting. No, you just have to learn to deal with it, as there will always be people who dress dramatically different than you do. Yet, if the primary goal of education is to prepare kids for life, why is there a harsh restriction on dress, ultimately expression? If there is a harsh dress code, kids will be culture shocked once they enter the real world, which could be detrimental to their success and life experiences. Why possibly fail a student when the education system could actually help them learn something?

Side: Pro: More freedoms
2 points

Like in Hazelwood School District v. Kuhlmeier, these types of restrictions are to protect the other students. The school district wanted to protect the newspaper's audience from such sensitive topics and personal details. School dress codes are put into place to protect the students from inappropriate conflicts. During the middle and high school years, most minors are sexually developing and there are many hormones being secreted that send libido into overdrive. These rules are to help lighten urges and avoid sexual distractions from education.

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
1 point

I agree that kids should have the same freedoms. Specific rules are in place to create the best possible learning environment. Kids should not be focused on wearing or doing things that will take away from that.

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
16mmoore(3) Disputed
1 point

While dress code is a controversial subject, it's only an issue with the kids who have to follow it. Kids, from prepubescent to teen, feel like their clothes shouldn't matter. The fact is that your clothes do matter. Your choice of clothing defines how people perceive you at first sight. If you're a girl wearing booty shorts that look a lot like a thong in public, that's disturbing. If you were a guy wearing that same outfit, even more so. There are some things that shouldn't be seen in public unless it is truly for a valid statement. During Gay Prides, people wear crazy outfits as an expression of their sexuality. That's perfectly okay. Do those people go to work like that? Probably not, unless they work in a place I cannot mention on this forum. While your clothes and your appearance is a form of free speech, no one can deny that certain ways to dress are completely inappropriate and offensive. My next example may be extremely unlikely, but you never know. Without dress code, a white male student who is racist could show up to school wear a Ku Klux Klan outfit. It would offend a great deal of people who would want him to take it off, but doesn't he have a right to free speech? Would you, as a high school student or even as a middle aged person, want to sit next to someone dressed like that? Would you want to sit next to a female who looked like she replaced her clothes with a fishing net? While some dress codes can be very strict and feel like they're oppressing, they aren't there to limit your rights. They are there to protect your rights and to make sure that you develop some sense of what is appropriate and what isn't for public everyday life.

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
1 point

I agree with this statement fully. The topic of dress code is a indeed a controversial subject and most likely will always be as every school is different with a different set of restrictions. Following what was already written there have also been studies that relate how a person acts during their day to what they are wearing. An example could be comparing sweats to a dress or jeans to slacks. In the study students who dress "for success" were able to perform better on exams and focus better during classes then compared to one who dressed down. They connected this mostly to the mindset of the students as they were dressed poorly so their mindsets for the day was a reflection of this. I agree clothing does show one's individuality but are there not other ways of showing it other than what you wear to cover your skin? How one speaks and acts towards other is a prime example of your individual character as a person no matter what you are wearing. Schools want you to succeed in the future and prepare you for the real world. Many professional businesses were many of us will work have dress codes, some even more strict then an average public schooling system.

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
1 point

While students shouldn’t exactly possess more “freedoms” than are currently provided, students should most certainly have a certain extent of freedoms in public schools. As Abe Fortas stated in his opinion in Tinker v. Des Moines, “Student’s don’t shed their constitutional rights at the school gate.” Simply because one is in school, does not mean the administration should dictate every single thing a student does. Students still have basic human rights, such as freedom of speech, press, expression, and religion. That does not mean these freedoms should be unlimited and that students should be allowed to do and say whatever they may please, as that would be anarchy and disrupt learning. In Tinker v. Des Moines, for example, the Court ruled that the the first amendment applies to public schools. Administration is only be allowed to “restrict” basic freedoms, only so long they have “a constitutionally valid reason for any specific regulation of speech [and other rights] in the classroom,” as Justice Abe Fortas stated in Tinker v. Des Moines ruling. So long administration can provide such justification, then a certain freedom of a student may be restricted.

Another basic freedom students have (and should continue to have) is freedom of religion, or lack thereof. In Engel v. Vitale, the U.S. Supreme courts ruled that school prayers were a violation of the U.S. constitution and the Establishment clause of the first amendment, which further supports the argument that students should have “freedoms,” as it is unconstitutional to force or promote a religion in a public school to students. Finally, students are still human, not slaves of the school system; and the basic rights and freedoms given to citizens should in no way exclude those who attend school.

Side: Pro: More freedoms
1 point

I totally agree with the fact that the school staff should not completely dictate everything a student does. If they did, then that would breach the First Amendment, causing controversy as seen in Tinker v. Des Moines. I also believe that students should have more freedom in speaking their minds, whether their ideas are wrong or right. If it is wrong, then the teacher can help explain why it is wrong instead of allowing that student to live their lives believing in something not right.

Side: Pro: More freedoms
dhowell23(4) Disputed
1 point

I admit I agree with what you are saying and understand why you are, but at the same time relate more with the teachers with this view. Students, especially at our age, have very narrow views and only know things in which they hear or have experienced in their lifetime-- which is not long at all. While I agree a teacher should help explain why something is wrong instead of just saying no you are wrong, but should't they have the ability to regulate what is not appropriate for school? With more freedom to speak I imagine many students would abuse the power to complain and vocalize things that could be taken offense to with the teachers unable to do anything about it

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
1 point

I support this, although (and i know you didn't say this, it's just where you put it) I don't believe students should possess more freedoms. But everything you said is completely valid and I agree with. Religion is something that shouldn't offend anyone because what are they doing to harm you? If someone wants to pray at school they should be allowed to even if they are the one Muslim person at a school filled with mostly agnostic people or something like that.

Side: Pro: More freedoms
1 point

In the Supreme Court case, Wisconsin v. Yoder, the Supreme Court unanimously decided that compulsory school attendance violated their rights under the free exercise clause of the first amendment, and Maryland could therefore not force individuals to attend school if it breaches a first amendment right. While there were several other important things decided in this case, one crucial part was overlooked- the students. The United States Supreme court said the case was about the interests of the parents to exercise free religion and did not relate to the child's First Amendment's rights. Therefore, "the argument pertaining to the child's right to exercise free religion was irrelevant in this case." The needs of the children were completely overlooked and deemed as "irrelevant." While the ruling was unanimous, there was one particular justice who still submitted a dissent and wrote, "I agree with the Court that... the Amish are opposed to the education of their children beyond grade school, yet I disagree with the Court's conclusion that the matter is within the dispensation of parents alone." The difficulty with this approach is that, "despite the Court's claim, the parents are seeking to vindicate not only their own free exercise claims, but also those of their high-school-age children....

On this important and vital matter of education, I think the children should be entitled to be heard. While the parents normally speak for the entire family, the education of the child is a matter on which the child will often have decided views. He may want to be a pianist or an astronaut or an oceanographer. To do so he will have to break from the Amish tradition.

It is the future of the students, not the future of the parents, that is imperiled by today's decision. If a parent keeps his child out of school beyond the grade school, then the child will be forever barred from entry into the new and amazing world of diversity that we have today. The child may decide that that is the preferred course, or he may rebel. It is the student's judgment, not his parents', that is essential if we are to give full meaning to what we have said about the Bill of Rights and of the right of students to be masters of their own destiny. If he is harnessed to the Amish way of life by those in authority over him and if his education is truncated, his entire life may be stunted and deformed. The child, therefore, should be given an opportunity to be heard before the State gives the exemption which we honor today."

While this is a rather lengthy quote, I wholeheartedly agree with his opinion. It is not as black as white as "parents v. state law." The outcome of the decision made Wisconsin v. Yoder involved students, and the decision was made with no regard or reference to any student whatsoever, which is entirely unfair. In this sense, students need to have more freedom of speech and expression and make their OWN choices, in this particular sense being whether they attend school beyond the 8th grade. It is illogical to make a decision without involving those who the decision affects the most, and this only further proves that students need to have more basic freedoms of expression, as they are sometimes unfairly restricted.

Side: Pro: More freedoms
1 point

Schools should provide more freedoms for the students, returning back to the First Amendment. As citizens of the United States, we are granted certain rights, such as Freedom of Press, Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Religion, etc. These rights are restricted within schools, subduing the student's and teacher's individuality. However, there is a limit to how much an individual can extend their freedoms, but right now they have yet to reach that limit. This was the argument in Wisconsin v. Yoder; the ability to express religion freely. Yoder argued it was against their religion to keep their children in school past the 8th Grade since it was not essential to their Amish Lifestyle. The 1st Amendment's Free Exercise Clause and the 14th Amendment help to support Yoder, as the Wisconsin State Law directly violates our most basic human right: right to life (our own) and freedom of Religion (mind you we broke away from Great Britain for more freedoms, religion being one of them). We need to provide more freedoms within schools, religion being one of the easier ones to loosen the reigns with.

Side: Pro: More freedoms
16dmccal(3) Disputed
2 points

While I believe we shouldn't be restricted, I don't believe students should have more freedoms. That's basically saying "Since these people are in schools and most of them aren't adults, we'll give them more rights than tax paying, working citizens who have already completed school." I don't believe that's right. Now, midway into typing this I think I've just realized you meant more freedoms relevant to what we have, not relevant to everyone else and I agree with that. But students shouldn't have more rights than everyone else.

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
msalan(5) Clarified
1 point

Clarification... Are you saying individual students should be allowed to freely express their religion in school? Because they should. But does this not then limit the rights of others, who may feel their first amendment rights violated when the school openly promotes or supports school prayer/expression of religion? Because a school may not promote religion nor prayer, even if the prayer is voluntary to join, as it has been ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in Engel v. Vitale. In short, I am asking for you argument to be clarified as to whether you feel the school should be allowed freedom of religion in order for students to have more freedom of religion? Or must the students be allowed more freedom of religion and speech when they, in no way, associate themselves with the school promoting their beliefs?

Side: Pro: More freedoms
16cschre(4) Clarified
1 point

To clarify: I am saying students should be able to freely express their religion in schools. I agree with you on not promoting it, like in Engel v. Vitale, but we find in many schools that there are only a few religious groups. While this does not outright suppress other religions, it makes those of different religious affiliation feel outcast and unwelcome. They don't necessarily have to associate with the school promoting their beliefs, but should be able to express their freedoms with assurance that they will not be prosecuted.

Side: Pro: More freedoms
1 point

I would like to agree with this argument using the case of Tinker v. Des Moines Independent School District as another example. A couple of student in Des Moines, Iowa wore black arm bands to school protesting the war in Vietnam. School official have told them to take theme off and they refused resulting in suspension fro the school. Their parents decided to sue the school district for violating the students rights for freedom of speech. This is a written part of the First Amendment which was brought to the Supreme court. I believe that their decision in favor of these students was the right decision because everyone should be able to express their opinion equally. This has been a problem for a while in the early 1900's for citizens of this country, but the first amendment allows these rights with the 14th amendment protecting it as well.

Side: Pro: More freedoms
KolossalKris(3) Disputed
1 point

The Supreme Court ruled in favor of Tinker. What other freedoms do the students need? They were granted the right to wear their black arm bands in protest of the war because it did not infringe on the learning environment.

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
1 point

I definitely support kids (K-12) having more freedoms in school. Some people may argue that school's sole function is to provide kids with education, which is true to some extent; however, school's SOLE function is not to only educate. School is also used to promote national loyalty and to push political thinking (i.e. Pledge of Allegiance is used for national loyalty and schools in blue states will have more blue teachers who will teach a curriculum that is provided by a blue state). Furthermore, there are guidelines for curriculum and requirements for a student to fulfill in order to graduate; these are opportunities for people to push political ideologies in these required classes, instead of letting the student pick their own classes for education. In real life, there won't be someone always hovering behind a student to make all their decisions or tell them what to do. People will be left in the real world where the shock of transitioning from a student to an adult can be high. This transition can be eased if students had more freedoms in school since freedom doesn't start when a person turns 18. Education involves the populace being informed of local/national stories/issues and free debate; Hazelwood School District v. Kuhlmeier shows that students, despite being young adults, aren't afforded the same liberties as people a year or two older than them. In this case, politics came into play as a person thought that a couple articles might be controversial (one person's controversial is another person's ordinary) and tossed out the article. How is school really about education if information to educate peers is censored? People can argue that these types of articles would be censored in real life but that is not necessarily true. There would almost always be a company willing to publish stories, even if they are controversial; even if there isn't one, people can still publish the same information anonymously on the internet and pass along the information anyway. They could still be discovered but they could just apply their freedom of speech and, if any story is directed towards powerful people, that person would most likely prevail since juries are hesitant to side with powerful politicians, else it would seem like the minority would prevail over the majority. Besides, if people are offended by certain articles, they can simply choose not to read them. It would be beneficial to the students to have more freedoms so they can experience politics first-hand and know how to respond to them in real life, instead of being controlled second-hand. So, if politics are unavoidable in school, and school's supposed purpose is to educate the young, then why not let the young have more freedoms to know the workings of politics and properly be prepared for the real world?

Side: Pro: More freedoms
1 point

The Declaration of Independence directly states, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal." No where in the Declaration does it mention age requirements for a person can be deemed to be a "man." So if all men are created equal and there is no age requirement, why are students given less rights than "men?" The answer includes that students are still forming political opinions and could potentially disrupt learning. Consequently, people fear that giving students too many rights would disrupt school learning, which is not true. There will always be people who take a step too far to abuse given liberties, but most people will not. Most people should not be punished and have their rights stripped away just because of age or the minority abusing given powers. As long as people are not being offensive, students have a right to having freedom of speech and religion. Separation between church and state is extremely important but this separation should not dictate every move a student makes. For example, school administrators should not lead prayers or denounce other religions, but students have the right to pray during school since it reflects their personal identity and religion (i.e. administrator can't tell students to pray but Muslim students should be allowed to pray five times a day since it is a core aspect of their religion).

Side: Pro: More freedoms
1 point

There could be the possibility that people need to be more resilient in school systems. Just because someone voices their opinion, this does not mean you have to listen to them. Why should we be talking about taking these rights away when you have to option to disregard what they say. Some parts of this do not make much sense. I do see some logic in the students scenario in the 'Hazelwood v. Kuhlmeier' case. I do not disregard that they editor of the paper was just trying to include something that pertains to real lives of students every single day. The only way this becomes a problem is when people being to react or "freak out" about the subject. So where I am getting at is, why should we be placing limitations on student speech because students do not know how to handle the information appropriately?

Side: Pro: More freedoms
1 point

As we know, the United States of America has policies that support the freedom of speech, assembly, religion or many other individual choices, however, when It comes to action, the US can't keep forbidding many of the individual freedoms that each citizen must have in order to comply the first amendment. We really need to consider giving more opportunities to the students to be able to pray, profess a religion or showing their political like or dislikes freely without being criticized. School is a place of human growth and development, but If we see most of our likes or dislikes banned from a classroom, we are going to fail as citizens that have the ability of critical thinking.

Side: Pro: More freedoms
1 point

I believe that school prayer has been an issue for some time. Santa Fe Independent School District v. Jane Doe was a case that abolished the right to open prayer within all public schools. I agree with this because their are many separate religion in the world today. It would be unfair for the people who don't accept Christianity, or whatever religion that is dominant at the school, to have to go through a prayer and basically waste their time. Prayers can be made individually or in groups some other time for whoever feels they need to. This would keep conflicts of the prayers arising within the schools and allow students to peacefully carry on with their day.

Side: Pro: More freedoms
1 point

I believe students should have more freedoms within schools. Some students feel like they can not express their individual beliefs. In Hagelwood v. Kuhlmeier, the Supreme Court ruled that the Hagelwood school district was not infringing on Kuhlmeier's first amendment rights. Kuhlmeier was oppressed and not allowed to express her own individual beliefs, which I belief is an infringement of her first amendment rights. Yes, it is in a school newspaper, but she was expressing her own individual opinion. Why can professional journalists express their opinions, but students such as Kuhlmeier can not? They are all entitled to the same rights.

Side: Pro: More freedoms
1 point

In many instances, I see a need for more freedoms in the classroom. In the Wisconsin v. Yoder case, they had to fight for their protection of their culture and religion. In the Hagelwood v. Kulhmeier case, they had to fight against the school district for taking away the student's first amendment rights. By having more freedoms in schools, the students will feel more freely to be open about their views and perspectives.

Side: Pro: More freedoms
-2 points
3 points

The primary objective of education is to learn. Children are sent to school to learn. As children progress through the years of education going from basic skills in kindergarten to studying the workings of advanced mathematics in high school, they are learning so many things to prepare themselves to be out in the ‘real world’. Children are entitled to fundamental rights, but until about fifteen they have no depth conception of what these rights truly mean. Does a six year old need the right to petition? No, they have no understanding of what the purpose of petitioning really mean. Does a twelve year old understand the right of free speech? No, but there sure use it saying things that they really shouldn’t. Children have rights, but they don’t exercise those rights because they don’t always have a purpose too. Every court case that deals with children was started by a parent. Engel v. Vitale was a parent suing New York on behalf of their child for the First Amendment’s establishment clause. Brown v. Board of Education was a parent suing on behalf of their child because a black child couldn’t go to the school closest to the family because it was for white kids. Yoder v. Wisconsin was yet another Supreme Court case in which an Amish parent sued on their child’s behalf because the school was infringing on the religious beliefs of the Amish children. Children from kindergarten through middle school have their fundamental rights of free speech, freedom of religion, of press, and assembly. They possess these rights and no one can take them away. However, these rights aren’t used by children until they become young adults and they understand what these rights mean. Between the age of fifteen and eighteen, kids are growing into young adults, but they aren’t yet adults. They are still stuck in the developmental age and stand on the other side of a gray line that they automatically cross when they graduate. Up until that day, you are still considered children and have a protective shield that pretty much guarantees that your rights will be protected by your parents, or your school. When you’re out of high school and out in the real world, the only person that’s going to protect your rights is you.

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
2 points

I support this position. Many children are not capable of grasping higher concepts such as politics and sciences until after the age of ten according to multiple psychology theorists. Also, many students would probably fail in being heard because they are not as intellectually developed as an adult which is why the parents jump-start those cases. Minors are also not intellectually advanced enough to understand their rights and how to appropriately apply them. Not only this but students in elementary and middle school are not necessarily concerned with their rights but rather focused on building relationships and education.

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
1 point

I support this position. I too think the sole purpose of getting an education is just that - getting an education. I think that the freedoms students have today are sufficient in getting the job done. At a certain point, adding more freedoms could lead to a softer learning environment, and become counter productive.

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
3 points

The rights allotted to modern day students should remain the same. There definitely was a need for change in earlier years such as Brown v. Board of Education for racial equality and Wisconsin v. Yoder for more religious freedom. But as a senior in high school, I have never felt the need to challenge my rights. Every case that was won in the past has paved the way to a sound understanding of students' rights for today. Not only this but many children are not capable of grasping higher concepts such as politics and sciences until after the age of ten according to multiple psychology theorists. Minors are not intellectually advanced enough to understand their rights and how to appropriately apply them. Not only this but students in elementary and middle school are not necessarily concerned with their rights but rather focused on building relationships and education.

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
1 point

I agree with your arguments. The freedoms awarded to students today should remain concrete. I feel as a student in high school that my needs and freedoms are met, and never feel oppressed or held back.

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
2 points

Schools should have the authority to restrict those types of media and press associated with them. In the 1988 Supreme Court case 'Hazelwood v. Kuhlmeier,' the principal of the school did not allow two articles regarding teen pregnancy and divorce to be published in the school newspaper. In the article about divorce, the student who was being interviewed blamed her father and his actions for the divorce. The father was neither notified about anything relating to the article nor allowed to comment or give his opinion. The principal may have been worried about the writer's lack of concern for privacy in this case and therefore felt that it was within his rights to not allow the article to be published. The article on teen pregnancy, he felt, also violated the privacy of certain individuals as the only actions made to preserve anonymity for the students being interviewed was changing the name of said students. In the "real world" media, the freedom of press is exercised by writers and journalists being allowed to publish what they want to on a blog or in a newspaper - providing the newspaper or the website allows it. If something in the article covers controversial content, in the view of the publisher, the publisher has every right not to allow it to be a part of the product which their company puts out. In that case, the writer or journalist must find another place to publish their work. In the case of Hazelwood v. Kuhlmeier, the principal acted as the individual who chose which content would be allowed to be published in the paper, and he did not say that those articles could not be published at all, simply that they could not be published in the school newspaper.

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
2 points

I am in support of Meghan's position due to the fact that the primary goal of going to school is strictly for educational purpose. Though controversy of opinion, and individualism is going to occur regularly, some subject matters are too extreme resulting in disruption of the learning environment. In some cases, such as the 'Hazelwood v. Kuhlmeier' used as an example by Meghan, it is simply inappropriate for a topic as sensitive as divorce and teen pregnancy to be widely distributed to the student population, especially at a high school. The newspaper also falls under the jurisdiction of principal with his high end position in the school system. If something considered "obscene" is to be published, the accusations are going to be directed to the highest supervising position; the principal. These topics might be something accepted outside of the school environment, but the same rights stated in the first amendment are assimilated, and modified to fit into an appropriate learning surrounding.

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
trm358(75) Disputed
2 points

Kidshealth.org argues that many teens and children are strongly affected by divorce and have weak coping mechanisms to deal. Research has found that teens from divorced families are more aggressive, anxious, higher school drop out rates, more sexually active at an earlier age, higher rates of delinquency, higher rates of drug and alcohol addiction

(http://understandingteenagers.com.au/blog/the-impacts-of-divorce-on-teenagers/#sthash.kUV9XyqK.dpuf). With such a high percentage affected, shouldn't students be able to voice their opinions and express their feelings on the matter?

Side: Pro: More freedoms
meaganfolmar(4) Disputed
2 points

Who says that an article has to support an opinion on a "controversial" subject? The fact of the matter is, many teens struggle with pregnancy or parents having a divorce. As a result, their mental and emotional state will be effected as a result and may not want to approach other adults for answers. An article about divorce or teen pregnancy doesn't have to be persuasive or obscene (i.e. "whatsherface got pregnant and doesn't know who the father is since she's a harlot." or "so and so's parents are getting divorced and she's looking terrible!"). These subjects can be informative to help students who might be going through these situations and need information (i.e. "53.3% of females who are sexually active might get pregnant or receive an STD and kids whose parents are getting divorced are 76% more likely to be sexually active without informing an adult). To pass this information along (I made up the statistics) might surprise teens and think about their actions once they think about the statistics and move in a more positive direction. Without this information, teens could find themselves in bad situations and don't know what to do since they don't possess the information.

Side: Pro: More freedoms

There should be no place in schools for any element which detracts from the primary aim of education. The argument that certain non academic topics could expand the student's understanding of the world in which they live is eclipsed by the inevitable hijacking of such subjects by militants who would press for them to form an ever expanding roll in the school's curriculum. ''Give an inch and they'd take a mile''.

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
swoff(5) Disputed
2 points

If the primary aim of education is to educate children about the world, and its various subjects, disciplines, and properties, that they will eventually delve into, then why not have non-academic topics. For at any job are there not going to occasionally be distractions? At any meetings, will there not be irrelevant subject matter at some point or another? At every business deal or sale, will there not be some unforeseen variable once in a while? Thus, while most obscene and overly offensive non-academic materials should be cut out, not all of it should be eviscerated entirely, as it may actually help prepare the students more than hurt them.

Side: Pro: More freedoms
1 point

I completely agree, children K-8 never see any conflict between their basic rights and education, it only appears in 9-12 where we find the most complications. I really like the case Yoder v. Wisconsin as it exemplifies this point. It is just after the 8th Grade where the Amish tend to remove their children, since they believe that's all the education they need, but Wisconsin's Law rules that they stay until they 16 years of age. It only becomes a problem when the children or parents become aware.

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
JuanVargas98 Disputed
1 point

It is true that the main purpose of a school is to educate children and to teach them a lot of subjects that will help them through their lives, however, that does not mean that they will be ready to be critical thinkers that can handle challenging situations during their lives. When you experience differences with people that surround you every day, you try to show your point of view and expose your opinion, so a debate is created and your ability to think and to find your own conclusions is developed. If schools were able to give more individual freedoms, the amount of topics that would be discussed would help to increase the critical thinking of students, making them more than students, citizens with the ability of self-sufficiency and critical thinking.

Side: Pro: More freedoms
KellyCoolJ(4) Disputed
1 point

Sorry Juan, I'm going to have to side with Gill, while yes debating can be a good and helpful learning experience if it’s not used in a safe and moderated way it can get nasty and hurtful real quick. Now-a-days if your bring up a highly controversial topic in school it can lead to dangerous results because many people can feel very deeply on the subject and may lash out at you. And again the whole point of school is to educate students in a safe environment.

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
1 point

I completely agree. There is a time and a place and a school, who's primary concern is a safe, neutral learning environment isn't it. These extras are considered privileges, or enrichment to further the knowledge of the student on what is decided is appropriate for the specific age. I see no reason to cloud that. There will be plenty of time for that outside of school. It isn't the school's responsibility.

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
2 points

Students should have more or just slightly less freedoms for the simple fact that I believe that minors would simply take said rights for granted but that can be argued on a different day. For the most part though, equal rights should be given to students in the US because they are still citizens and in many supreme court cases such as Tinker v. Des Moines, students are still citizens that should have the right to freedom of speech to express their opinions. In Tinker V. Des Moines, it ended with the supreme court ruling in the favor of the students in that the school had to prove that the conduct or speech “materially and substantially interferes” with school operations in order to justify the ban, and it did not, it was simply voicing an opinion and schools should not be allowed to silence the voices of students.

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
2 points

I completely agree with the point you brought up that the freedoms students possess in school have to be according to the rights given to all U.S. citizens in the Constitution. There cannot be such a thing as too much or too little freedoms if it is according to the Constitution. You always make a good point that if the freedoms were to increase, minors would take them for granted and only cause a havoc. It could be argued that students already have too many freedoms, so the argument would only be benefited if the freedoms were to increase.

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
2 points

Students' current freedoms should stay the same or be a little more limited. Personally, I feel that the freedoms I posses in school right now are where they need to be. To add on to that, if school districts would give students too much freedom, then those freedoms could be abused such as aggressively expressing point of views or promoting different religions. However, if school districts were to decrease the freedoms students already possess, then it would come to violating the First Amendment. In Santa Fe Independent School District v. Jane Doe, the school was sued by several people for allowing a student “chaplain,” voted on by the students, to lead prayers at home football games. The court decided that it was unconstitutional, for it was at a school-sponsored event where all people present were set in a position to participate in a religious event. This is an example of what could happen with too much freedom, such as people becoming offended because of the promotion of a religion that is not theirs.

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
2 points

I agree with Dani and her statement. In all of my years of schooling I have never once questioned my freedoms of felt like they were threatened by any faculty member in the several school systems I have been apart of. If we increase the amount of freedom students have, for example the freedom of speech, it is easy to see where students would take advantage of this and can make people uncomfortable as it is clearly represented in the Santa Fe Independent School District v. Jane Doe case. People are always going to use the freedoms that are given to them to their advantage and especially at a young age, this can go way too far.

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
2 points

(In response to @meaganfolmar's post- but I needed an original post)

The subject of pregnancy and divorce is touchy when it comes to legislature and should not be taken lightly. In the case of the Hazelwood School District v. Kuhlmeier, a school newspaper; one of the purest forms of expression of thought and speech, was kept from publishing due to the potential of a student being singled out and shunned. In 2015 2.42% of all teenage girls became pregnant, which equates to 1294 annual teenage pregnancies. So you can see that, while this occurs more often than we think, it still singles out a single population, similarly to racism. Divorce on the other hand, does not have such an effect. While the divorce rate in the United States remains around the 50% mark, students are not as reactive as the statistics claim them to be. Ask your peers, while divorce is never fun, it's never always traumatic or emotionally damaging. Each individual has the right to privacy and speech, or the lack thereof. Teenagers are exposed to enough material that they are aware of the dangers, and are FREE to do so. It'll never be me, but it just might be. We all have freedom of expression, speech, religion, etc., but it doesn't always need to be expressed. We're find and functional as we are- no need for change.

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
2 points

I believe that is best for schools to continue the tradition of the same freedoms that they have today. Not only do restrictions in the schools keep people safe physically, they keep people safe emotionally as well. There are few incidents that go on at school that cause a major problem with other students and the staff as well. For example, in the Hazelwood School District v. Kuhlmeier case, girls tried to include the impact of divorce and teen pregnancy on teens and this was denied by the school and the Supreme Court as well. People do have the freedom of speech, but they only do at a certain extent. This paper would have caused many emotions to the people who were affected by it and maybe the staff as well. Those are unnecessary actions that can lead to a problem within the school. These few freedoms prevent these unhealthy events from taking place.

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
2 points

Thomas Jefferson stated that all men are created equal in the Declaration of Independence. This is one of the most famous and most quoted lines in the history of the United States of America. Yet, what exactly constitutes a man? Through countless years of debate and numerous court cases, the definition of a man, in the case of venerated legal documents, can be stretched to any person, regardless of gender or race, who has reached adulthood. But then the question becomes this - what is the age of adulthood?In 47 of the 50 states, a person reaches adulthood once they are age 50. Obviously, once someone reaches the age of adulthood, they are thereby equal under the Declaration of Independence and can receive all rights granted to them by the Constitution.

But what of those people who are under the age of 18? Across America, the vast majority of people under 18 go to schools (some do not because of various reasons, one being religion - see Yoder v Wisconsin). And by the time they reach 12th grade, most kids are 18 years of age. What then becomes of them and the rest of the schoolchildren while they are in school? In my opinion, I do not think that they should receive all rights guaranteed to adults in this country, as they are not yet adults. Particularly, when people are younger and still in school, while they may not lack the education (some of the kids blow me away), they lack the experience of the "real world". Thus, schoolchildren may not fully comprehend rights in certain situations and what is right or wrong. Therefore, to prevent offense and controversy, the schools should be strict on limiting the rights if students in schools.

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
1 point

I would write the following as a way to 'dispute' several arguments, but a lot of the same things are included in several of them so it would simply be a matter of copying and pasting the same thing over and over, so I'm going to include it all in this one post.

I feel like a lot of people have alluded to this, but no one has exactly outright said it, so I will: we're teenagers. Even though we might feel like we know anything and everything that has to do with the way we should think and conduct ourselves, we don't, because all we know is what we have been taught by our parents, teachers, and other adults in our lives. We know how to develop and interact with other people of our age and maybe we've learned a few things here and there from that, but we don't really know what we're doing or how to act on our own because most of us have never been on our own. This is not to speak for every single teen; without a doubt, there are many teens or younger that have faced many struggles that left them alone to cope with learning how to live that way, and if that is the case, this doesn't entirely apply to that group of people, but they are still growing up and learning new things and developing their opinions as they grow more educated. For the reasons that we are not fully grown, we are not as developed or mature as most adults, and we have not yet learned how to make decisions on our own, adults are put into our lives other than our parents and the people our parents know - our teachers. These teachers are supposed to help us see several things besides simply educating us in topics such as math or how to read Shakespeare. One of their unwritten responsibilities is to help us view a situation from all sides. A lot of people are condemning the school principle in the case of Hazelwood v. Kuhlmeier, for removing the two articles concerning teen pregnancy and divorce due to the controversial nature they possessed, but no one has really mentioned the fact that he didn't find the topics controversial, he found the way that they were expressed to be a matter of concern. First, let's look at the article regarding divorce. Yes, of course I respect the student's decision to write about this topic and I know that the topic is something that should be expressed and talked about, but I also agree with the principal in saying that the way it was written about was wrong. It is sometimes said that people will believe anything that they read. This is true in some cases, but it is not true in others. Either way, if you read something, it stays in your mind whether you are conscious of it or not. Especially in an article covering a topic as sensitive as divorce, this can have a huge impact on the people who read it if they go through something similar. It was said that the article "featured a story about a girl who blamed her father's actions for her parents' divorce." Who is to say that some students who may have divorced parents - or parents who would get a divorce in the future - and did not feel that it was the fault of a particular parent start to feel that way after reading the article due to them realizing (or even imagining) parallels between their experiences and that girl's? Or maybe they had those thoughts beforehand but were able to rationalize them, thinking it was okay for that parent to have their own opinions because they are, after all, human - that student may read the article and think that rationalization isn't necessary after all. Suddenly, there is a group of angry, emotionally unstable teenagers blaming their parents for the reason their life is now so terrible and additional responsibilities are placed on the guidance counselor, who has to calm these students down and help them see reason again; on the teachers, who have to deal with students being disruptive or not doing their work; on the principal, who has to cover complaints from parents regarding the article - it puts a large amount of unnecessary stress on a lot of people. This is the reason why the principal did not allow the article to be published. If the father who the student was complaining about was allowed to make a comment and let his own side of the story be explained as well, that would be a different case and perhaps the principal would have allowed the story to be published but the problem was that another side to the story was not present and there was not enough time to gather that information and edit the article to include it before the paper was sent to the publisher, so the article was simply removed. Secondly, let's take a look at the article regarding teen pregnancy. This one will be shorter, I promise. There is a possibility of a parent reading the article and recognizing that one of the girls who is being interviewed sounds a lot like their daughter (or the daughter of a friend who is no more than a phone call away) and suddenly the principal is getting a call from an angry parent yelling about the fact that "she's MY daughter and you had no right to allow a story like that to be published!" The next thing you know, the school has a lawsuit regarding the right to privacy on their hands because the daughter is under 18 and is still under the protection of her parents. You can see one of the reasons why the principal would be concerned about the privacy of the students, even if they did consent to be interviewed, and how it was not addressed by the writer clearly enough by simply changing their names. This also goes with seeing two sides: anticipating how another party could possibly perceive something and taking the proper measures to avoid it.

Another thing I have seen a few people mention is prayer in schools. Now, there is no law that can be made regarding religion, which according to the Establishment Clause means that the government cannot favor one religion over another, religion over non-religion, or non-religion over religion. What this can be translated to is that public schools, which are government funded, cannot legally encourage students to practice one religion or another, nor discourage students to practice their respective religion. What they can do is allow students to practice their religion. Therefore, students have a legal right to pray in private or among themselves, but not to use school equipment to broadcast their prayer to everyone in the school. In an example used by many people wanting more rights for students, Muslims should be allowed to pray in schools - legally, they are allowed and any public school law preventing them from doing so is unconstitutional and is therefore the fault of the school district, not the nation in general. That argument belongs on this side, which supports the same amount of freedoms as students already legally have.

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
1 point

I believe the freedoms provide to kids in school today are sufficient. Kids already have the right to express their own opinions as long as it does not infringe on the learning environment. In Tinker v. Des Moines, the Supreme Court ruled in favor of the Tinker kids wearing black arm bands to protest the Vietnam War because it was not infringing on other students learning. Anything that would infringe on other students learning environment would not be allowed, so I do not think the students need any more freedoms then they already have. If they went an farther they would disrupt the learning environment and take away from the purpose of school; receiving an education.

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
1 point

I concur with you KolossalKris, students today have adequate rights enough that it doesn't hinder the student's learning environment in school. Students go to school for the main purpose of learning and achieving an education. If we take this away and give students more freedom it will hinder the main objective in school and eventually hinder them in the future

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
1 point

A school's purpose is for the intake of information. Following the argument in the case of Hazelwood School District v. Kuhlmeier, the censoring of school related public forums is within reason. While the institution should have information readily available concerning sensitive subjects, it should be provided by adults at the school, meaning teachers, guidance counselors etc. But anyone who has concerns about things like pregnancy, or needs help coping with divorce should not be seeking out guidance from a fellow student. That responsibility belongs to a staff member. I maintain that the information should be available, though not printed by a forum such as a school newspaper. The rights of a student currently are sufficient when it comes to receiving an education. The uses of newspapers, news letters, and clubs are a privilege and an EXTRA when it comes to education. The public school system is very lenient with the freedoms of students and I see no reason to expand them. There will be other mediums for the children get their opinion out, and once they graduate, their circles of influence will increase. Giving them this privilege too early will be a distraction from the primary cause of instituting a neutral learning environment.

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
1 point

I completely agree with the notion that there is no reason to expand liberties within school. From where I see it there is more than enough chances to express your opinions and beliefs within school, whether it be through clubs or extracurricular activities. There is no reason to expand something that already provides more than enough to students.

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
1 point

I agree with this. Students go to school to be educated, simple as that. Students brains have not developed fully until the age of 25

(http://hrweb.mit.edu/worklife/youngadult/brain.html)With this to consider, students need a structured learning environment. It should be the priority of the teachers and staff to provide their students with this. Even though most schools have organizations, activities, etc. It is not the responsibility of the education system to make sure students have social experiences, unless required to teach educational material.

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
1 point

I don’t see any problem with the way things currently are handled as far education is concerned. There needs to be limits to the way students can act in school in order to provide the best learning environment possible. The Hazelwood v. Kuhlmeier case is the perfect example of why students freedom of expression should be limited. If students are free to say whatever it brings subjects and controversies to school that are otherwise unnecessary and distract from the learning environment. Schools have to have the ability to keep things out of school that shouldn’t be there, because if there is no one regulating what's happening in schools students and teacher will lose focus of the real goal, which is education.

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
1 point

It’s like you said Dustin, the way schools are right now with their education is good. And yes, I agree with your findings with the Hazelwood v. Kuhlmeier case. Once a student's comes in and start controversies which may impede or hurt a student's learning environment then the ultimate goal of teaching students and giving them education is lost

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
1 point

I support the notion of students having enough rights and liberty as far as education goes. The major objective schools have is to educate students so that they are prepared for their future and for the chaotic world they are about to enter. Schools, in today's age, have done an excellent job of preserving all of the students rights and freedom. I believe that schools don’t need to limits students rights nor make students have more freedom. For example, look at the cases Hazelwood v. Kuhlmeier and the case of Tinker v. Des Moines. In the Hazelwood case principles do have the right to prohibit the publishing of certain articles, which he deems inappropriate, in the school newspaper this is to help keep the school safer and in turn the students, which he is in charge of safe. In the case Tinker v. Des Moines I believe that justice have been served and the students did have the right to wear religious or symbolic things, as long as they don't disrupt class, and are now implemented in schools today making it fair and just in school systems.

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
1 point

My argument is much the same to many of the other arguments that have already been made. However when mentioning the Hazelwood v.s Kuhlmeier case one of the many arguments is how the material submitted for the newspaper was removed because of its content. While it's understandable why the writers of the article were upset, I can't help but understand why the content discussing divorce specifically was removed. It was noted in the case that in article itself it was written the father was the cause of the divorce. Keep in mind this is a school article not a celebrity gossip column. Many have already agreed the content was not appropriate for the school as it had no educational value. In my opinion, by writing the article which blames the father for the event they have changed the intent of the newspaper from a source of information to a source of gossip which is unneeded in a newspaper that represents the school as a whole. A divorce is a very personal matter and has no need to be published for a student body to read especially since the father himself was never informed on the article.

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms
1 point

One of the main problems I find in giving students more freedom is just how far will these new freedoms extend? Compared to most, many teachers are rather respectful of a student's freedoms and only intervene when it goes against something like the school's reputation or a subject many could take offense to. This argument has already been touched on by others but it's one that is rather important. Student can be unpredictable and filters don't always work. For example, if one student were to voice an opinion on a side of going against someone's religion then that student who does believe in that faith would get offended along with their family and friends. A school's credibility is very important and to have it ruined by a teenager is something rather unfair to the teachers, staff, and rest of the student population who are now being viewed as to be in agreement with the opinion as they did nothing to stop it.

Side: Cons: Same or less freedoms