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So Oklahoma has the ten commandments displayed at their state capitol...
Currently all requests for displays at the state capitol are being put on hold until the law suit over the ten comandments is settled. But wait this debate isn't about whether the ten commandments should/should not be put up at the state captiol...In responce to the ten commandments being put up in such a manner a group of Satanists has put a bid in to have their deity put on display in statue form.
If the courts allow for the ten commandments to stay should other religious groups have the same rights to put up their statues? Why or why not?
link to a simple write up. http://news.yahoo.com/satanists-unveil-design-okla-capitol-monument-212735130.html
A little better write up, other groups have also put in bids for their statues. http://abcnews.go.com/Weird/wireStory/satanists-unveil-design-okla-capitol-monument-21440030
Sounds fair
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but...but...
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This argument reminds me of the atheist monument movement a while back. Equally ridiculous but equally guaranteed under the first amendment. That's the kicker to religious tolerance, it's a double sided blade. It's illegal for anyone to not respect your beliefs, but you must also provide them the same. I say so long as the statue depicts nothing mentally disturbing, or more adult than what can be considered pg then it's completely fair. Side: Sounds fair
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Good catch on the typo. Also fixed 'diety' to 'deity'. Funny spell check catches it now but not in the 'create' portion. I think your comparison is off. "It's kind of like erecting a statue of Hitler." Hitler is not a worshiped god. There is no religion for Hitler, but there is one for Satan. Whether it is a symbol of evil to other religions is irrelevant. That view stems from Christianities view of Satan, the worshipers of Satan do not see their deity as evil. Atheistic satanists view Satan as a symbol only. According to churchofsatan.com "Satan to us is a symbol of pride, liberty and individualism, and it serves as an external metaphorical projection of our highest personal potential. We do not believe in Satan as a being or person." Theistic satanists also do not view him as evil but as patriarch figure. Other doctrines such as Hinduism have also put in their papers for their deities to have statues erected. Some christian fundamentalists have stated these gods are evil as well, but same as above these claims are irrelevant. Do you oppose these statues as well, or just the Satan one? If the Oklahoma courts allows one religion to be represented on the state grounds at the capitol why not others? Side: Sounds fair
I think your comparison is off. "It's kind of like erecting a statue of Hitler." Hitler is not a worshiped god. Satan isn't a god either. They took a character from the Bible and started worshipping him. My reason for mentioning Hitler was to point out what he represents. People don't typically make statues of bad things... at least in this day and age. Whether it is a symbol of evil to other religions is irrelevant. That view stems from Christianities view of Satan, the worshipers of Satan do not see their deity as evil. Satan is only in the Bible (excluding the obvious works of fiction, even though their Satan is also from the Bible), at least under that name. They worship the same exact character, but look at what he did in the Bible in a different light than Christians. They think he represents free-will, enlightenment and so on... but if the Abrahamic authors who wrote the Bible say that Satan is evil, then it's pretty ridiculous to take the character and paint him in a positive light. That clearly wasn't the intention of the authors. If that's the case, then I can say that after Hitler died, he became a loving deity... does he deserve a statue? Atheistic satanists view Satan as a symbol only. According to churchofsatan.com Well, he's also a symbol of evil. That's indisputable. There were massive protests in the Middle East when a European artist mocked Muhammad in one of his drawings. Putting up a statue of Satan would lead to protests as well. "Satan to us is a symbol of pride, liberty and individualism, and it serves as an external metaphorical projection of our highest personal potential. They're most likely referring to Satan tempting Eve, which led to her and Adam's understanding of good and evil. The problem with that is that the character who tempted Eve wasn't Satan. It was a serpent. The Bible even says that his punishment was losing his limbs and becoming a snake. The serpent's punishment is the Bible's way of explaining the creation of the snake. So, maybe they should be worshipping a snake. A statue of a snake would definitely be less offensive. We do not believe in Satan as a being or person. Then let's be honest... they really shouldn't give a shit about a statue. Do you oppose these statues as well, or just the Satan one? The mass majority of Christians aren't offended by Hindu statues... especially if they live in an area with a predominant Hindu population. I'm not religious, by the way. If the Oklahoma courts allows one religion to be represented on the state grounds at the capitol why not others? The State owns the land, they should have the right to choose what kind of statues go up. Side: but...but...
Italics mine, bold yours. Satan is only in the Bible (excluding the obvious works of fiction, even though their Satan is also from the Bible)...the Abrahamic authors who wrote the Bible say that Satan is evil, then it's pretty ridiculous to take the character and paint him in a positive light. Atheistic satanists view Satan as a symbol only. According to churchofsatan.com Well, he's also a symbol of evil. That's indisputable. Again, you are using Christianity as a lens to view this other religion. Satanists themselves dispute your point, it is not in fact 'indisputable' as the claim is apparently subjective. A whole religion paints this deity in a positive light another the opposite. Also Satan is in the Quran, just an FYI. If that's the case, then I can say that after Hitler died, he became a loving deity... does he deserve a statue? Well you could say that but it wouldn't be accurate..I think what you mean is 'What if there was a church of Hitler' and it was recognized by the US as a religion. If there was a church if Hitler and it was recognized by the government as legitimate, what grounds could they be discriminated on by the government? The government could not deny this church any rights as they cannot deny Neo Nazis or Christian Separatists similar rights. The above portion about whether X is evil or not seems to be a red herring to the actual issue. I am just using italics here to separate this from the below statements. Whether people believe X deity os evil or good is irrelevant, the Church of Satan is a recognized religion in the US and as such is protected just as other religions. You are making an argument that based on Christianities views of religion X we should not let that religion have the same protection in this country as other religions, specifically Christianity. Why should the government respect one religion over another when the establishment clause forbids the government from doing that? Do you oppose these statues as well, or just the Satan one? The mass majority of Christians aren't offended by Hindu statues... especially if they live in an area with a predominant Hindu population. So you suggest we should be enforcing and protecting rights based on offending the least amount of Christians? Shouldn't all recognized religions have the same protections in this country despite how Christianity feels about them? If religion X gets a statue on government ground, religion Y should have the same rights. Side: Sounds fair
Again, you are using Christianity as a lens to view this other religion. It's the same exact Satan! The Theistic Satanists just think that the Bible has it all wrong. The Bible introduced Satan... how could it be wrong? A whole religion paints this deity in a positive light another the opposite. Also Satan is in the Quran, just an FYI. That's where my Hitler analogy comes into play. There has to be someone that steps in and says, "No, that's retarded". Satan isn't in the Qur'an. Shaytan is though. Satan is a name. They're using the name that appears in the Bible. Why not Shaytanism or just Devilism? Well you could say that but it wouldn't be accurate..I think what you mean is 'What if there was a church of Hitler' and it was recognized by the US as a religion. Oh... but taking a character from the Bible that represents evil and saying that he's a good deity IS accurate? The government could not deny this church any rights as they cannot deny Neo Nazis or Christian Separatists similar rights. The government could deny them the right to build a statue on state property. You are making an argument that based on Christianities views of religion X we should not let that religion have the same protection in this country as other religions, specifically Christianity. Would Satanism exist without the Abrahamic religions? No. Do the Abrahamic religions portray Satan positively? No. I'm arguing that they're wasting their time trying to have a statue built on state property. If they own the property, then they can put a statue of a giant penis up for all I care... but at the same time, I'm also arguing that Satanists clearly just want attention. They took the evil character of the Abrahamic religions, changed him around to fit their beliefs and started worshipping him. They wanted a reaction... and they obviously still do! The State has to make a decision... allow the Satanists to construct a giant statue of Satan posing like Jesus does at Sacre Couer, with children standing beside him and a pentacle... which has it's roots in paganism (Venus in particular)... not to mention, he looks like Hollywood's interpretation of the Devil... or tell them to take their statue elsewhere, preferably a large Satanist community. Why should the government respect one religion over another when the establishment clause forbids the government from doing that? Who said the Ten Commandments has to be religious? It's a good moral guideline. If Atheists can use Satan (a character in the Bible) as a symbol for free will and enlightenment, then the State of Oklahoma can use the Ten Commandments as a symbol of morality. So you suggest we should be enforcing and protecting rights based on offending the least amount of Christians? When did I say that? You were the one who compared Hindu statues to a statue of Satan. A statue of Satan is going to offend Christians in particular... I was just trying to stay on topic. Shouldn't all recognized religions have the same protections in this country despite how Christianity feels about them? And they do... but the State of Oklahoma has the right to choose which statues go on their property. If religion X gets a statue on government ground, religion Y should have the same rights. If an African American community puts up a statue of Martin Luther King in their park, should they also put up a statue of the leader of the KKK? Why should Abraham Lincoln get a monument in DC, but not Millard Fillmore? Would you support FDR being on the dime if you voted against him? You're basically asking the same question. Why favor one thing when others find something else to be more favorable? Side: but...but...
Again italics mine bold yours. You are making an argument that based on Christianities views of religion X we should not let that religion have the same protection in this country as other religions, specifically Christianity. Would Satanism exist without the Abrahamic religions? No. Do the Abrahamic religions portray Satan positively? No. And as I stated before Satan is in the Quran, spelling differences aside both religions agree it is the same guy. You present a subjunctive fallacy here when you state that satanism would not exist without Christianity as Satan exists elsewhere too. This is just a continuation of a red herring. But you are ok with denying a religion rights they are supposed to have in the US based on what another religion says about the other? Well you could say that but it wouldn't be accurate..I think what you mean is 'What if there was a church of Hitler' and it was recognized by the US as a religion. Oh... but taking a character from the Bible that represents evil and saying that he's a good deity IS accurate? Again you are viewing this through the lens of Christianity. Yes the two regions are at odds with each other on many issues, but you are arguing that one religion should take precedence over the other as far as the US government is concerned. The establishment clause forbids this. You seem to be dodging that satanism is a recognized religion with this line of reasoning as well. You are running along a red herring here, it doesn't matter what religion X says about religion Y as far as rights are concerned. The government could deny them the right to build a statue on state property. Sure they could, but isn't that hypocritical if they allow a different religion that honor but not others? Who said the Ten Commandments has to be religious? So you for your argument you need to pretend this is not a religious statue that is up....gotcha. If Atheists can use Satan (a character in the Bible) as a symbol for free will and enlightenment, then the State of Oklahoma can use the Ten Commandments as a symbol of morality. But we know this isn't what happened is it? If it were then there should be no issue from anyone putting either up. But the truth is both symbols carry more meaning in the context they are used in that what you suggest. Shouldn't all recognized religions have the same protections in this country despite how Christianity feels about them? And they do... but the State of Oklahoma has the right to choose which statues go on their property. They have the right to choose what to let on their property within the law. And if all religions had the same protection in this country then the church of Satan should have the same rights and be allowed to construct a statue as well. If an African American community puts up a statue of Martin Luther King in their park, should they also put up a statue of the leader of the KKK? I think you miss the point here. Should the KKK have the same right to put up a statue? Yes. The original statue is not being put up for a 'balance' issue, this is not 'they did it so we get one too' it is 'if they can we should be able to as well'. I still fail to see why the US should allow one religion (X) rights but then not other religion (y) the same rights based on what the first religion (x) feels about the second religion (y). This is against the establishment clause directly. This is respecting one religion over another. This is why I noted the above about whether Satan is evil or not is a red herring. I'm arguing that they're wasting their time trying to have a statue built on state property. But the Christians who put up the ten commandments were not? So you feel this US recognized religion should not have the same rights as other US recognized religions? Your statements about how Christianity feels about this religion and that you feel not many Christians would have issue with Hindu god statues in the same area show that you are using Christian culture as the measure of whether or not the Church of Satan gets these same rights as other religions and not US law. We may be at am impasse here as we are using different measures. I feel the measures you have provided are inadequate for many reasons but mainly that they are not grounded in US religious rights (in fact they seem to be against the establishment clause) and this issue is taking place on Government land where these rights are supposed to be protected. Side: Sounds fair
And as I stated before Satan is in the Quran, spelling differences aside both religions agree it is the same guy. I should make it clear that while most people's favorite subjects are science, math, history, etc... ever since college, mine has been religion. That being said... you can't bullshit me into thinking you know about Christianity and Islam, otherwise you would have known that the Devil in the Qur'an and Satan in the Bible are not the same. Iblis is his original name in the Qur'an. He was a "Jinn" created by fire. Satan, in the Bible, is a fallen angel. Jinn's are below angels. In Islam, Iblis (Satan) is often considered to be a synonym for evil, where as in the Bible, Satan is an actual being. You present a subjunctive fallacy here when you state that satanism would not exist without Christianity as Satan exists elsewhere too. You do know what the Abrahamic religions are, right? I didn't say just Christianity. Plus, which religion introduced the name "Satan"? Now, assuming that you are referring to ancient polytheistic religions as well as Hinduism, you will find that their version of Satan, if you could even say that, is drastically different. But you are ok with denying a religion rights they are supposed to have in the US based on what another religion says about the other? The right to construct a statue on a property that isn't theirs? Correct me if I'm wrong... but didn't the state pay for the Ten Commandments statue to be put on their property, thus making it theirs? Yes the two regions are at odds with each other on many issues, but you are arguing that one religion should take precedence over the other as far as the US government is concerned. Do you agree or disagree that the government has the right to approve and disapprove whatever goes on their property? You seem to be dodging that satanism is a recognized religion with this line of reasoning as well. Just pointing out their flaws. I never said they weren't a religion. Jediism is obviously bullshit, but even that's picking up some steam. Sure they could, but isn't that hypocritical if they allow a different religion that honor but not others? Not really. Religious freedom doesn't mean you can build a religious statue on someone's property, who doesn't approve. Approving the Commandments statue probably came down to a vote. They were clearly in favor of it. So you for your argument you need to pretend this is not a religious statue that is up....gotcha. Nah, I don't need to. I was just making a point. If that wasn't a valid enough argument, you probably wouldn't have ended it with "gothca". But we know this isn't what happened is it? Do we? The Ten Commandments has been a guideline for both religious and non-religious societies, especially in America. If it were then there should be no issue from anyone putting either up. Maybe they don't like how the statue of Satan looks. And if all religions had the same protection in this country then the church of Satan should have the same rights and be allowed to construct a statue as well. Do they not have the right to build a statue anywhere? It isn't their property... it's that simple! I think you miss the point here. Should the KKK have the same right to put up a statue? Yes. But in the same area? A park in which they don't own. I still fail to see why the US should allow one religion (X) rights but then not other religion (y) the same rights based on what the first religion (x) feels about the second religion (y). Well, the obvious answer is that they're a bunch of old Christians... duh! In their eyes, Satan=Evil, Commandments=Good. Their property, their choice. Why would they put up a statue that, to them, contradicts the statue right next to it? It's politics man. Build a statue that appeals to the majority Christian Oklahomians... or piss most of them off with a statue of Satan? Clearly, not building any religious statue would be a better move... but the fact that anyone really gives a shit is pathetic. Maybe Satanists should work on improving their image before requesting a statue be built at the State capital. I'm not sure if you've been to the capital building in DC, but right at the top of the capital building in the rotunda, is an image of George Washinton as a deity. To many people, that could be offensive. Foreigners would probably think it was arrogant of us. I guess my point is... who gives a shit? I'd also like to point out that if Satanists want a statue of Lucifer (who I'd argue isn't actually Satan), then they don't need to look any further than the most famous statue in America. The Statue of Liberty! Before you say that I'm crazy, let me explain... Lucifer means "Light-bearer". The Statue of Liberty is holding a torch. Artist interpretations prior to the Statue's construction depicted Lucifer with the same seven-pointed crown and robes on. Also, Lady Liberty doesn't look like a lady. That's a man's face. If you want to get even more into conspiracy mode, The Illuminati(they aren't evil), the secret society of famous scientific-minds, infiltrated into the Freemasons long ago and made their mark with their ideologies and such. The Illuminati means "The Enlightened". That may be coincidence, but who knows! Also, in case you're interested... Lucifer is the son of Venus, as is stated in the Bible. Venus was of course, a Roman goddess. Her sacred animal was the Dove (a very important Christian symbol that usually represents the Holy Spirit) and her symbol was the pentacle... also known as the pentagram or the five-pointed star (the image in the background of the Satan statue). Little known fact, the Olympic's 4 year schedule is based off of Venus' half cycles... every eight years it stops at a different point, some say it forms a pentacle if you connect the dots. The Olympics actually planned on making the five pointed star their logo, but Satanism adopted it... kind of ruined it... so they went with five rings instead! Anyways, Venus the goddess, had a son... one we see often on a particular holiday. Cupid! Whether Lucifer and Cupid are the same, I do not know... but they both share a common trait, which is that they can affect people's minds. I'd also like to point out that in the Bible, Jesus also says that he is a decendant of Venus. Anyone who truly knows their days of the week, knows that Friday is Venus-Day and any Christian (and many non-Christians) know that Jesus died on a Friday... which Christians still acknowledge... called "Good Friday"... And on that particular day each year, either the pope or a representative from the Vatican delivers a sermon at the ruins of the Temple of Venus, located in the Roman Forum. Sooo... I just felt like filling your mind with some random shit. I guess out of all that, you can pull that if Satanists can make the Bible character whoever they want him to be, they can do the same with a statue... of Liberty! Dun dun dunnn! Side: but...but...
On Satan's origins and alignment, I stated this has no bearing on my argument and seems to be a red herring to the point I have been making. I will just concede this point as it has no bearing on my stance what so ever. The right to construct a statue on a property that isn't theirs? Correct me if I'm wrong... but didn't the state pay for the Ten Commandments statue to be put on their property, thus making it theirs? Well you are wrong on two accounts. (Also if the state payed for it it would have been a HUGE issue, but luckily they didn't). 1) A christian group payed to have the statue of the ten commandments erected. This is what the courts are looking at now to see if this will affect the separation from church and state. That it why other religions are lining up now as they should have the same right to have their religions on government property. This was in one of the links I put up. This also addresses some of your points below. 2) Also 'theirs' would be 'ours' since it is our government, ours as in everyone including all religions that are practiced in the US. Government property is not private property. This portion addresses other points you make as well. Yes the two regions are at odds with each other on many issues, but you are arguing that one religion should take precedence over the other as far as the US government is concerned. Do you agree or disagree that the government has the right to approve and disapprove whatever goes on their property? Agree, (but the 'their' property bit I already addressed) now apply the portion I keep repeating that you keep avoiding. Why should the government allow one religion take precedence over another when this contradicts the establishment clause? Aren't Hindu's and people of other religions citizens with the same (supposedly) rights as Christians? Why single this one religion out just because it goes against the majority? That certainly is not protecting their religious freedoms. Do they not have the right to build a statue anywhere? Dunno where this came from....it seems you have left out some criteria. Not anywhere, a statue of religious nature was put up on GOVERNMENT property, other religions asked to do the same. Well, the obvious answer is that they're a bunch of old Christians... duh! ...It's politics man. Well that's weak justification of a stance of why the US should respect one religion over another. In fact nothing you have said justifies the government respecting one religion over another. Majority rule can turn out to me oppression for the minority. For someone who isn't religious you have Christian leanings, but that is the US culture as a whole really. Clearly, not building any religious statue would be a better move. I believe the courts will find the situation unconstitutional and the current statue will be moved off of government land but put nearby. Then all the other religions who have raised money will not have a venue to put up their statues problem solved. I skipped the whole false equivalency bit you put in at the end of your argument even though it undercuts a few of your assertions above. Like our last conversation it appears we won't see eye to eye. Side: Sounds fair
I will just concede this point as it has no bearing on my stance what so ever. Good idea. 1) A christian group payed to have the statue of the ten commandments erected. Ah, I didn't know that. I didn't read the article... I just looked at the picture LOL! I still don't see why it's a big deal though. Brazil is supposedly a secular state, but they also have the world's largest statue of Jesus over-looking Rio de Janeiro. Whether the Ten Commandments statue was privately funded or not, doesn't matter. Just because you can afford it, doesn't mean the State will allow it on their property... in this case, they decided that the Ten Commandments was more appealing than a statue of Satan. That it why other religions are lining up now as they should have the same right to have their religions on government property. They have the right to ask the government to consider their religious design. If the government disapproves, then tough shit. Go somewhere else. They applied for a monument. There was never any guarantee that they would get it. Plus, the Satanists only applied to point out the State's hypocrisy... which, even that is flawed. The first Amendment states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...". The State's monument doesn't impede on any of that. I'd also like to point out that a similar case occurred in 2005, which involved the Supreme Court. They ultimately ruled in favor of the State, declaring that their Ten Commandments monument was constitutional because it represented "historical value" and not just "religious value". While there have also been cases in which the court decided against the State, I'd like to point out that Texas' monument, the one that remained, looks almost exactly like Oklahoma's. Also 'theirs' would be 'ours' since it is our government, ours as in everyone including all religions that are practiced in the US. It's still government property. It isn't really ours. You can't go plant a garden on the lawn of a courthouse. Agree, (but the 'their' property bit I already addressed) now apply the portion I keep repeating that you keep avoiding. I'm not avoiding anything. You just aren't understanding. Why should the government allow one religion take precedence over another when this contradicts the establishment clause? It doesn't... "The accommodation interpretation prohibits Congress from preferring one religion over another, but does not prohibit the government's entry into religious domain to make accommodations in order to achieve the purposes of the Free Exercise Clause." When they passed the bill, they made sure that it was in accordance with existing Supreme Court rulings, which explains why their Ten Commandments monument looks exactly like the one in Texas. Actually, I just read the bill (HB 1330)... http://www.ecapitol.net/ In case you don't want to read it, I'll point out some key parts. "1. That the Ten Commandments found in the Bible, Exodus 20:1-17 21|and Deuteronomy 5:6-21, are an important component of the moral 22|foundation of the laws and legal system of the United States of 23|America and of the State of Oklahoma;" "That the placing of a monument to the Ten Commandments on 17|the grounds of the Oklahoma State Capitol would help the people of 18|the United States and of Oklahoma to know the Ten Commandments as 19|the moral foundation of law." "The Ten Commandments monument shall use the same words used on the monument at issue in Von Orden v. Perry, that the United States Supreme Court ruled constitutional." "The placement of this monument shall not be construed to mean that the State of Oklahoma favors any particular religion or denomination thereof over others, but rather will be placed on the Capitol grounds where there are numerous other monuments." So... remember when you basically dismissed my argument as being bullshit earlier? I think you ended it with, "gotcha". Well, I hate to say I told ya so... but I told ya so. They are claiming that their monument represents the foundation of moral law in the United States and they constructed it to be exactly like Texas' constitutional Ten Commandments monument. Not anywhere, a statue of religious nature was put up on GOVERNMENT property, other religions asked to do the same. It turns out that their statue doesn't represent religion... but rather America's laws, as I've already stated. Well that's weak justification of a stance of why the US should respect one religion over another I just figured that was what you wanted to hear. You were implying it. I believe the courts will find the situation unconstitutional and the current statue will be moved off of government land but put nearby. Then the courts would be hypocrites considering they allowed the exact same statue to remain in Texas, due to it's constitutionality. I skipped the whole false equivalency bit you put in at the end of your argument even though it undercuts a few of your assertions above. I don't blame you. I was tired as shit and just started rambling on. I just got on a roll, I guess. I don't know why you said it was false though. You don't know if it is or isn't. Certain things are known facts, like the Olympic thing and an image of Washington as a deity at the interior of the rotunda. Ya know... just once I wish someone would look at my religious symbolism arguments and say, "Holy shit... that was amazing" lol. Side: but...but...
Ah, I didn't know that. I didn't read the article... ... The Texas case is very different from the one here. Doesn't matter if they look alike as the state says, it is missing an important detail and that is the historical significance. The statue is from the director of an epic film and of historical importance aside from its religious connections. The movies statue was based on the religion, the states statue was based on the movies representation, therefore the states statue is also based on the religious statue. If a=b and b = c then a=c...simple maths here. Can you confer historical significance the same way? No. I can have a replica car of a historic/rare car, but it would have neither of those qualities, it would be a simulacrum. It would represent the car(religion in this case), but not itself be historic nor rare. The Oklahoma statue cannot have the same historical significance or rarity of the Texas one, but it can convey the religious message the original was made to represent. Then the courts would be hypocrites considering they allowed the exact same statue to remain in Texas, due to it's constitutionality. As above, it does not have the same properties as the original. And it is not the exact same statue , or it would be the same statue. It turns out that their statue doesn't represent religion... but rather America's laws, as I've already stated. No historic value as the original and as math shows...it is based on religion, not the historical significance of a movie which is why the other statue gets to stay. But wait....this is a red herring too. No point running down this route as in the original debate I stated if the statue is found to be constitutional, should other religions be allowed the same honor? Well now, if the statue is found to be constitutional and religious, then yes other religions should have the same right. If found to be constitutional and not to represent a religion then no, other religions will not have the opportunity. And of course if not found constitutional then obviously no other religions get to have a chance at putting up a statue. They are claiming that their monument represents the foundation of moral law in the United States This is claiming that Christianity is the foundation of moral law. If they wanted it to be secular why not present it in a secular way rather than present it in an obviously religious context way as they did? This is obviously Christians trying to circumvent the laws to get their way. The claim it is a secular monument reaks of BS as it is fashioned as the religious one. Just because it is claimed one way doesn't make it so. Which is the issue of why the current statue is in the courts now. They are deciding if this is a government declaration of a religion. Certainly allowing one religion to put up religious monuments but not others would solidify that first religion as being respected over another by the government. Oh, and as for the point I conceded due to it having no effect on my argument, I have done research as well. I just brought this up again due to your smugness and the fact we seem to be at an impasse, I seem to view allowing one religion the honor of being represented on state ground via monuments while others do not get the same honor to be a breach of the establishment clause, you do not. Onto the other portion... Plenty of Muslim sites state it is the same being, plenty of Christian sites state otherwise. If you use Christianity as you did against the church of Satan the Quran is wrong, but if you judge them by their own measure then they are right with themselves. Here is just one link of the many Muslim sites that show this. http://english.bayynat.org/Doctrines/ Even the wiki sites recognize this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil(Islam)) The subjectivity you use is pretty stout and decidedly (maybe subconsciously?) Christian as I have pointed out before. This is to be expected in western nations though, we swim i this culture and it is hard for fish to see the water they swim in. Why would you use Christianity to explain a different religion, philosophy or science, you wouldn't use Christianity to explain Buddhism or evolution, you would use their own measures otherwise you are not measuring anything but Christianity. Side: Sounds fair
The Texas case is very different from the one here. Doesn't matter if they look alike as the state says, it is missing an important detail and that is the historical significance. The statue is from the director of an epic film and of historical importance aside from its religious connections. They didn't place it there due to it's significance to the film. The monument didn't even appear in the film. Rather, they argued that the Ten Commandments played a role in Texas' legal history and promotes morality, just as the painting of Moses inside their courthouse supposedly does as well, which they argue is symbolic of a lawmaker. The organization, known as The Fraternal Order of the Eagles, who donated the monument had already given plaques and monuments of the Ten Commandments to schools, courthouses and public places across the country because they claimed that it promoted "youth morality". Prior to the 1970's, the FOE swore an oath to God and had an initiation ceremony that consisted of repeating religious phrases from the Bible. The state of Texas agreed to place their Ten Commandments monument on the State capital grounds in 1961. In 2004, the Supreme Court had this to say: "While the Commandments are religious, they have an undeniable historical meaning. Simply having religious content or promoting a message consistent with a religious doctrine does not run afoul of the Establishment Clause." As well as this: "Despite the Commandments’ religious message, an inquiry into the context in which the text of the Commandments is used demonstrates that the Commandments also convey a secular moral message about proper standards of social conduct and a message about the historic relation between those standards and the law." Both of these statements can easily apply to the situation in Oklahoma as well. The movies statue was based on the religion, the states statue was based on the movies representation I don't know if you've ever seen the film The Ten Commandments, but the monument looks nothing like the film's representation. The obvious differences are that the monuments (both in Texas and Oklahoma) contain American symbolism. The eagle, the flag, the Star of David, "Christ" in Greek and the Masonic all-seeing eye. Now, as far as the director, Cecil DeMille, having anything to do with it... I could find little information regarding him donating Ten Commandment monuments outside of Wikipedia... and the sites that did mention him doing that, appeared to have received their information from that Wiki article. I did, however, find that the commandment tablets used in his film were donated to him by the FOE, not vice versa. It looks like DeMille did eventually become involved with the FOE, possibly enrolling as a member, but that was after the FOE already began their Ten Commandment movement... which was started by a judge, which may explain why they are showing up at courthouses across the country. therefore the states statue is also based on the religious statue. If a=b and b = c then a=c...simple maths here. The Ten Commandments have their roots in religion, that's obvious... but they claim that it has important historical value to America as well. You may not agree, but that's their argument... and like it or not, they can get away with it. The Oklahoma statue cannot have the same historical significance or rarity of the Texas one Sure it can. It may not have come from the same organization... but they're both claiming the same reasons for placing the monument. Moral value and historical value. The man who funded the monument in Oklahoma was Mike Ritze. He's a member of the Oklahoma House of Representatives. He had this to say regarding the monument: "It's a historical display to inform and educate the people about the role the 10 commandments played in our heritage". A Baptist Minister is actually suing because he thinks that Ritze's interpretation of the commandments implies that "God's name has no meaning". I think you said earlier that the monument was funded by a religious organization... which, as you see, isn't the case. It was funded by a government employee. As above, it does not have the same properties as the original. And it is not the exact same statue , or it would be the same statue. Well, obviously it isn't the same exact statue, as in the one statue... but the Oklahoma one was modeled off the one in Texas. They look exactly the same. Did you see the pictures? No historic value as the original and as math shows...it is based on religion, not the historical significance of a movie which is why the other statue gets to stay. No need for me to repeat myself. I explained up above. But wait....this is a red herring too. No point running down this route as in the original debate I stated if the statue is found to be constitutional, should other religions be allowed the same honor? To that statement, I'd recommend reading this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PleasantGroveCityv._Summum In case you don't read it, I'll give you a brief summary. A religious organization sued the city for allowing a Ten Commandments statue to be built on public property, but didn't allow their organization to place their own religious statue there as well. After ruling unanimously in favor of the city, the Supreme Court had this to say: " a municipality's acceptance and acquisition of a privately funded permanent monument erected in a public park while refusing to accept other privately funded permanent memorials is a valid expression of governmental speech, which is permissible and not an unconstitutional interference with the First Amendment's guarantee of free speech." This is claiming that Christianity is the foundation of moral law. Well, not exactly... the Ten Commandments were introduced in Old Testament aka the Hebrew Bible. They are important to both Jews and Christians. Is the American moral law inspired by the Ten Commandments? Yes. Evidence of this would be the fact that adultery is still illegal in many states. This is obviously Christians trying to circumvent the laws to get their way. Probably. But they are doing it in a way that is within their constitutional rights. Certainly allowing one religion to put up religious monuments but not others would solidify that first religion as being respected over another by the government. Not if they say that the monument's purpose is secular... which they are in fact claiming. I just brought this up again due to your smugness and the fact we seem to be at an impasse Well, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. It's just debating. Plenty of Muslim sites state it is the same being Plenty of Christian sites claim that Adam and Eve is a metaphor, while others do not... what is your point? Like Christianity, Islam has different sects. Mormonism is a Christian sect, but many of their beliefs are much different than mainstream Christianity (Jesus was in America, etc.) As for Islam, I gave you the general consensus. To give us a better idea of who they are referring to, they refer to Iblis or Shaytan as Satan. He is their equivalent, but he is not the same character. Christians believe that Satan was once an angel, Muslims do not. Christians and Muslims really hold only two characters in common... God and Abraham, pretty much everything else is different. The subjectivity you use is pretty stout and decidedly (maybe subconsciously?) Christian as I have pointed out before. Is this some sort of attempt at psychology? I typed up an entire paragraph connecting Venus to Christianity. Does that seem like something a Christian would do? It most likely has more to do with me being from America, which is strongly influenced by Christian culture... hence, the Commandments having historical significance to our moral laws. Why would you use Christianity to explain a different religion, you wouldn't use Christianity to explain Buddhism or science, you would use their own measures. Buddhism and Hinduism are Dharmic religions. Christianity, Judaism and Islam are Abrahamic religions. Satan and Iblis/Shaytan are Abrahamic devils. Satanism's beliefs spawn from the Bible... they just happen to interpret the text differently. Kind of like if I were to read The Adventures of Tom Sawyer and come to the conclusion that Tom and Huckleberry Finn are two gay river pirates and then promote the book as meaning that. Mark Twain, even though he's dead, wouldn't be happy. That wasn't his intention. All of the fans of the book wouldn't be happy, I'd be casting the wrong light on their favorite book. To understand how something like that can be offensive, you need to understand the book in it's intended context. Side: but...but...
The split decisions by the courts is interesting, we have a slightly different climate in the current courts but still a conservative leaning. The outcome may still be the same even though there still remains some differences between the statues. The Oklahoma statue does not have the 40 years of standing that seemed to sway the courts on the Texas statue having 'secular meaning'. The courts could still find the monument constitutional despite the differences. Why would you use Christianity to explain a different religion, you wouldn't use Christianity to explain Buddhism or science, you would use their own measures. Buddhism and Hinduism are Dharmic religions. Christianity, Judaism and Islam are Abrahamic religions. Satan and Iblis/Shaytan are Abrahamic devils.... This was me not being clear from post to post and this as reinforced by my including science in the mix. We were discussing the religious rights, I should have been more explicit about this. Whether Christianity feels Satanism is evil or not has no bearing on what the Government feels on this issue. Of course we can view these religions through the lenses you provided and make judgement on them because we are not restricted by these laws as the government is. As for if the character Satan is the same in the two different religions, as stated and linked, some say they are some do not. It is a matter of which following you give weight to. It is a matter of subjective beliefs between cultures as well. I am unsure of how you grasp objective/subjective realities still due to our first debate. As for your Christianity Venus bit, it is no secret that Christianity is heavily influenced by previous deities and myths. I am not saying you are christian, but you seem pretty comfortable with christian culture affecting your subjectivity on many matters rather than being more objective about issues. This whole portion here was way off subject, so I didn't address it originally. Well, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. It's just debating. This isn't hurting my feelings, just a bit of an annoyance. I dropped this portion of the debate to speed up our discussion as you didn't seem to be heading anywhere with this but point mining. You seemed to keep heading down non productive areas similar in our first encounter as well which prompted me to just drop the issue so we could continue elsewhere. Some other issues added to my annoyance this factor as well. Not reading links and not comparing what is said to you versus what you are saying seems to have cropped up in both of our meetings. This seems to drag out a debate much longer than needed. I am unsure if this is intentional to build up points or if you are doing this accidentally. The tone of this post seems to be much harsher than I intended. Read it with a grain of salt. Just saying not hurt feelings, but annoyed by behaviors that suggest you are not participating/arguing in good faith at times. Just a note; After much laboring on this topic you seem to be on better ground here than the topic of our first debate. Side: Sounds fair
The Oklahoma statue does not have the 40 years of standing that seemed to sway the courts on the Texas statue having 'secular meaning'. Forty years is a long time. It did take a while for someone to complain, but the complaints were the same as in Oklahoma, minus the request to build a statue as well... but that just leads over to the Pleasant Grove City vs. Summums case. That is almost the exact same situation as in Oklahoma. Whether Christianity feels Satanism is evil or not has no bearing on what the Government feels on this issue. Yes it does. Like I said, it's politics. If you are the leader of an area that is predominantly filled with a certain group (Christians), you don't place something in front of a government building that will greatly offend them. What the State chooses to place in front of their buildings, is a reflection of themselves... in this case it was the Ten Commandments, a list of laws... which is a pretty fitting theme for a courthouse. That being said, the monument was a bad idea... but it wasn't unconstitutional. Of course we can view these religions through the lenses you provided and make judgement on them because we are not restricted by these laws as the government is. "Satanism developed in the context of the Christian faith, as an ideological backlash to certain tenets promoted in Christianity. The character of Satan revered by Satanists, therefore, is mainly regarded as the prototypical anti-Christian figure." This is why it's offensive to Christians. Other religions tend to be tolerant of each other (except for radical religions), But Satanism is anti-Christian. Putting a statue of Satan next to the Ten Commandments is extremely contradictory and insulting to the Christian faith. Plus, the State is claiming that their statue is there because of it's historical and moral significance. The Satan statue is purely symbolic of Satanism. As for if the character Satan is the same in the two different religions, as stated and linked, some say they are some do not. It is a matter of which following you give weight to. Sure, but for someone who is non-religious, they're most likely going to give more weight to mainstream Christianity, Islam, etc. I am unsure of how you grasp objective/subjective realities still due to our first debate. You're really interested in psychology, aren't you? lol I'm not sure how to answer that question. I don't think it really matters though. As for your Christianity Venus bit, it is no secret that Christianity is heavily influenced by previous deities and myths. You didn't need to respond to that. I just brought it up in the previous argument to give an example of how I question Christianity just as much as any other religion... probably more. I am not saying you are christian, but you seem pretty comfortable with christian culture affecting your subjectivity on many matters rather than being more objective about issues. Not really. I think the State should also place Buddhist, Hindu and Islamic monuments as well (Judaism and Christianity already have the Commandments monument), just not Satanism. That may seem biased, but Satanism is, in a way, meant to offend. The Dharmic and Abrahamic religions are tolerant of each other, but Satanism, as I've already stated, is anti-Christian... which, if many Muslims do view the Christian Satan to be the same as theirs (plus, they believe in the same God), would mean that Satanism is anti-Muslim as well... and of course, since Jews and Christians both read the same Bible, minus NT, and believe in the same God... then Satanism is also anti-Jewish. This isn't hurting my feelings, just a bit of an annoyance. Well, calling stuff that I don't agree with "bullshit" is kind of my thing. Hence, my user pic... Bullshit Man lol. Saying that my arguments are "false" and "red herrings" can be kind of annoying too... especially when it turns out that you were jumping to conclusions too fast. I dropped this portion of the debate to speed up our discussion as you didn't seem to be heading anywhere with this but point mining. Point mining? LOL! I was responding to your points. You originally disputed me. I did get a little off topic with the Venus bit, but that was at the end of the argument... and I was way too tired to be on the internet lol. I was like tired-drunk... if that's even a thing. Plus, a lot of what you said was "false" and "red-herrings" turned out to be on topic the entire time. Like when I claimed that they were probably arguing that their monument was secular, you acted like I was just avoiding the topic and running out of arguments... you even ended your response with a sarcastic "gotcha". You seemed to keep heading down non productive areas similar in our first encounter as well which prompted me to just drop the issue so we could continue elsewhere. That's never really the case though, is it? I brought us to an understanding on both of our debates. Can you dispute the information that I gave you in my previous argument? I assume not, considering you clicked "clarify". Everything I said built up to that point. Lets be honest, now we're getting off topic lol. Some other issues added to my annoyance this factor as well. Okay... shit happens. Sorry if I offended you. Not reading links and not comparing what is said to you versus what you are saying seems to have cropped up in both of our meetings. Come on... whose links ultimately allowed us to put the story into context? This seems to drag out a debate much longer than needed. Why does that matter? You're here to debate, right? I am unsure if this is intentional to build up points or if you are doing this accidentally. Why are you complaining now? If you had a problem, you should have addressed it earlier. Now you just sound like a sore loser. I don't care about points. What will they get me? Just more points. The tone of this post seems to be much harsher than I intended. As does mine, but that's the problem with typing up an argument, rather than saying it. It's easily misinterpreted. Just a note; After much laboring on this topic you seem to be on better ground here than the topic of our first debate. Thanks... I guess. Side: Sounds fair
Forty years is a long time. For me the time is irrelevant measure here. If I put up a christian symbol in an area that has lots of Christians it would go unnoticed/unchallenged for longer periods of time more easily than lets say a Hindu symbol. Being there for X amount of time doesn't mean it is secular by any stretch, that is setting up a dichotomy. It just means folks don't mind it for their own reasons or are not bothered by it enough to raise their dander. For instance Coeur d'Alene Idaho has an art exchange program where they bring in and display sculptures in the downtown area. A statue of Ganesha was protested by the local Christians. The christian symbols or art in the area obviously do not get protested, this does not mean they are accepted as secular. This is very similar to the case we are discussing actually, where one religion is allowed to be displayed, other religions are given fair play. It does help here that the art is only on loan and will be traded out at some point, nothing in that area is permanent. Yes it does. Like I said, it's politics. This is an example of utilitarianism...and I am not very utilitarian. Either something is or is not, if it upsets X amount of people it doesn't bother me. Things like public opinions change over time and are a bad measure for these things. The law is often times very utilitarian which I disagree with as it can simply become pandering to the largest number rather than passing/enforcing laws based on a more objective standard. Sure, but for someone who is non-religious, they're most likely going to give more weight to mainstream Christianity, Islam, etc. This is a highly utilitarian measure as well, which is basically ad populum in this issue. This doesn't mean either stance is right, this is just a measure of where someone/population is more comfortable. It is pandering to the collective subjectivity of a population. I'm not sure how to answer that question. I don't think it really matters though. (on objective/subjective realities) It wouldn't matter to you much as you seem to lean towards the subjective on this area we are discussing. But to reach across a gap of cultures or philosophies it basically says 'be more like this' rather than 'this is why this is better/more correct of an option'. I am sure on another issue this may become more apparent to you, this topic...not so much. Saying that my arguments are "false" and "red herrings" can be kind of annoying too... especially when it turns out that you were jumping to conclusions too fast. It is up to the speaker to show the relevance of their points, show where your puzzle piece fits in. This is where I keep noting the subjectivity you are comfortable with, if someone has the same leanings as you they are more readily going to accept your stance. Someone who has a different world view will likely not agree with the slant you may not be aware you put on your points. I try to be more objective in my arguments to avoid this (and fail often myself and can point out a few times I have been guilty of this with you...hind sight). I guarantee you our world views and philosophies differ for a few various reasons. Although we both seem to be atheistic I cannot get on board with utilitarianism which seems to be a staple of your philosophy (at least on this subject). I claimed that they were probably arguing that their monument was secular... Misunderstanding here. I wasn't disputing that they were arguing that, I was disputing it was secular. This is a culture thing, mainstream culture would more easily say this display could be secular, subjectivity is sometimes hard to identify as we are raised in it. To someone outside the culture though, this is blatantly a wink and a nod to say it is secular. I brought us to an understanding on both of our debates. If agree to disagree is an understanding. Our first debate I feel your points are ad hoc (nothing to do with a utilitarian philosophy here, it is an issue of measures). The language and nuts and bolts of the last discussion still don't fit for the part we ended up on. This debate I feel you have merit. Why are you complaining now? If you had a problem, you should have addressed it earlier. Now you just sound like a sore loser. I like to give people the benefit of a doubt. Some points can take a while to make as people are fleshing them out as they go. In both of our debates the language changed. This debate however it seems you had information that was crucial to your point but waited for quite a while to use it. This may be because you don't have all the links saved for every occasion;/ Why I believe in giving the benefit of a doubt. We have areas where there is overlap, but in this discussion it appears we differ on our core philosophies. Can you dispute the information that I gave you in my previous argument? Dispute based on current laws? No. Based on philosophy, yes. The ruling is utilitarian (laws often are). The ruling assumes/reinforces the culture will stay the same. While the claims are that some of these displays also convey secular meaning I still maintain that this view is pandering to the collective subjectivity of the population. These things change over time and over time can become not representative of the population or be viewed more of a cultural bias to conform to Christianity. Other religions have similar conclusions but the setting is not framed in their religions or in a neutral manner. If we are to maintain that the US allows freedom of speech/religion I see this as problematic as it sets up a hierarchy. Things like this are considered micro-aggression towards others that are supposed to be equal. This is a culture issue, this is reinforcing christian dominance in a country where all religions are supposed to be respected equally. This is not to say that in the future these ideas cannot be challenged, but tradition is hard to change. This is Christianity digging in. edit: Just a note much of this is just me identifying why we differ. No need to contest any points if you don't want to. I don't think any debates will change someones core philosophy and no one is is purely one philosophy on every issue. And as for utilitarianism, I do feel it has merit in some portions of law but not in issues of equality. Side: Sounds fair
For me the time is irrelevant measure here. Okaaaaaay... I was kind of agreeing with you. Did you change your mind or something? You said: "The Oklahoma statue does not have the 40 years of standing that seemed to sway the courts on the Texas statue having 'secular meaning'." Being there for X amount of time doesn't mean it is secular by any stretch, that is setting up a dichotomy. Then why did you use time as your argument as to why the Supreme Court allowed Texas to keep their monument? This is an example of utilitarianism...and I am not very utilitarian. I've noticed lol. Either something is or is not, if it upsets X amount of people it doesn't bother me. But you aren't in the same position as government officials. They need to be utilitarian to an extent. It's part of the reason why first world countries are more successful than third world countries. This is a highly utilitarian measure as well, which is basically ad populum in this issue. You're responding to very minor points, but okay. I really don't see how my statement was an ad populum. Let me say it again, for someone who is non-religious, they're most likely going to give more weight to mainstream Christianity, Islam, etc. If you aren't a Christian, you aren't going to generalize Christians as believing that Jesus came to America, as Mormons believe. You're going to address the mainstream ideologies of the religion. Mormonism would be a branch, Christianity would be the tree trunk. If I'm going to make a general statement about the religion as a whole, I'm going to address that which has the biggest bulk of followers... which would be the trunk. The portion which supports the branches. It wouldn't matter to you much as you seem to lean towards the subjective on this area we are discussing. You're the one arguing that the placing of the Ten Commandments monument and not allowing the Satanism monument is unconstitutional. I'm the one that supplied proof that it IS constitutional. Whose arguments are more subjective? I'd have to go with the person who still thinks something is wrong, despite the fact that the law says otherwise. Could my actual opinion of Satanism be labeled as subjective? Sure... but my opinion doesn't have anything to do with the State's right to approve and disapprove of privately funded monuments on government property. My argument that the State has the right to place their monument and not allow the Satanist monument is objective. My argument that a Satanist statue offends many Christians is also objective. My argument that placing a Satanist statue on government property, especially next to a Ten Commandments monument, is wrong... that is subjective. Someone who has a different world view will likely not agree with the slant you may not be aware you put on your points. Someone cannot function in society without emotion. I may have a 'slant', but I'm only human. My opinion isn't as important when I can prove that the State of Oklahoma is within their constitutional rights. It's one thing to say that a fact is morally wrong, it's another to deny it entirely. Your argument is just as subjective as mine, if not more. We just have different opinions. I guarantee you our world views and philosophies differ for a few various reasons. Although we both seem to be atheistic I cannot get on board with utilitarianism which seems to be a staple of your philosophy (at least on this subject). I'm actually agnostic. Religious views aren't something I like to accept or deny with full force, so to speak. I find it hard to believe that you aren't utilitarian to some extent. If the only thing you and your family had to eat was one loaf of bread, would you split it evenly amongst the group? What if one family member wanted to give all of the bread to only the hungriest individuals in the group, even though everyone else is still hungry? Would you still split the bread amongst the entire group and risk that one family member becoming angry? I would imagine that you would go with the choice that maximizes happiness within the group. If agree to disagree is an understanding. That would work on the first debate... but in this debate, I don't know how you could disagree that they are within their constitutional rights. Some points can take a while to make as people are fleshing them out as they go. In both of our debates the language changed as did a few goal posts. I agree... but that isn't rare when it comes to debates, especially online debates. This debate however it seems you had information that was crucial to your point but waited for quite a while to use it. Certain arguments from one side often spawn certain ideas for the other. You brought up Cecil DeMille and the FOE later in the debate. I probably would have never researched the director and the organization if you hadn't of brought it to my attention. That's just one example. Dispute based on current laws? No. Based on philosophy, yes. Which would be subjective, correct? These things change over time and over time can become not representative of the population If it were to become unpopular over time, I'm sure the monument would eventually be removed. That's the same reason the monuments that were once in front of the United States Capital Building were removed, except they proved to be unpopular almost initially. I do not believe these are secular monuments in their presentation. So your argument IS subjective... lol. Side: Sounds fair
Okaaaaaay... I was kind of agreeing with you. Did you change your mind or something? Not at all. Sure the OK statue doesn't have this but it was one of the deciding factors for the original. I just find it to be a bad measure on the original as well. The art on display in Idaho (Coeur d'Alene) was an example of this. They need to be utilitarian to an extent. To an extent, it is a bad philosophy for measures of equality. I think later I noted it had merit in some applications. You're responding to very minor points, Guess it is part of the debate where we go there. The big parts are hashed out, due to differences in philosophy we will not have much middle ground. I'm sure the monument would eventually be removed. Fighting tradition is harder than getting it right on the first time...of course getting it right on the first try is...difficult. I already noted how this reinforces christian ideology in some ways and how this could affect others who are supposedly equal. Some of your points I seemed to have addressed in the post you responded to. Perhaps the lack of structure in my last post made this difficult. For instance you wrote "So your argument IS subjective... lol." but I conceded I too am guilty of this in a parenthetical "(and fail often myself and can point out a few times I have been guilty of this with you...hind sight)". I'd have to go with the person who still thinks something is wrong, despite the fact that the law says otherwise. Laws determine legal or illegal not always right or wrong. True many laws do try to be moral but often fail when the wrong measure is used. I argued that utilitarian measures are terrible in issues of equality. I gave you the yes it is legal point, but I disagreed the decision supports equality. "I find it hard to believe that you aren't utilitarian to some extent. Well of course we all have these leanings on different subjects to some extent. I hinted at this a few times in the last reply as well, true I focused mainly on aspects of the law though. What I meant was this seems to be your main force. No one is strictly one philosophy as situations dictate slightly different approaches at times...like this one below. If the only thing you and your family had to eat was one loaf of bread, would you split it evenly amongst the group? SOCIALISM!!...just kidding. Other philosophies could deal with this the same way though...there is overlap between many ideas. For instance the pragmatic solution would be the same, Kantian philosophy would also likely deal with it the same way. A better test would be something much more extreme...try a harder test. There is a British ship hiding Jewish people below deck fleeing Nazi Germany. The ship gets stopped and boarded by a German ship carrying Nazi's. The Nazi's ask if the Brits are harboring fugitives. The ships captain has to answer. A utilitarian would simply lie, a pragmatist would likely do the same however a strict Kantian would tell the truth and put the moral action on the Nazi. There is a test involving a train that is quite interesting too. But now I am rambling much like you and your Christianity/Venus ramble. I skipped points that were answered by others like "Then why did you use time as your argument as to why the Supreme Court allowed Texas to keep their monument?" as it was answered in the first portion of this response. If that gets confusing let me know and i will switch back to the long text version. edit...I did miss a point. Let me say it again, for someone who is non-religious, they're most likely going to give more weight to mainstream Christianity, Islam, etc......If you aren't a Christian, you aren't going to generalize Christians as believing.... I missed this change here. Originally you were talking in absolutes which is why I provided counter examples, to which you reasserted an absolute. It appears you are talking in generalizations here how. This seems to closer to me noting that it seems to both ways depending on which branch you use. Originally my assertion was a conditional statement...a generalization definitely works here as well for where we are now. Side: Sounds fair
Some of your points I seemed to have addressed in the post you responded to. Perhaps the lack of structure in my last post made this difficult. I often respond point by point. Sometimes I don't realize you already addressed something until after I typed up a response to one of your earlier points. Sometimes I go back and delete it, sometimes I'll leave a comment like, "Oh, I didn't realize you addressed this until now" and sometimes I'll just leave it the way it is. For instance you wrote "So your argument IS subjective... lol." but I conceded I too am guilty of this in a parenthetical "(and fail often myself and can point out a few times I have been guilty of this with you...hind sight)". Yeah, I know. I was just reinforcing that point lol. Laws determine legal or illegal not always right or wrong. True many laws do try to be moral but often fail when the wrong measure is used. This was just another instance of me pointing out your subjectivity. I felt like pointing it out a lot, since you did the same with me. I gave you the yes it is legal point, but I disagreed the decision supports equality. Well, I never really said that it supports equality. It supports Christianity and Judaism, if anything. I never said that they aren't being deceitful either, just that they're within their constitutional rights. What I meant was this seems to be your main force. Well, like I said... my personal opinion doesn't matter. I was just trying to prove the legality of the situation. If I were in charge of approving and disapproving monuments, then yeah, I would look at it from a utilitarian perspective... but only because I think this situation is similar to erecting a statue of John Wilkes Booth right next to the Lincoln Memorial or Hitler next to a Star of David. You and I may not be Christians, but most Americans still are and Satan is the absolute worst character in the Bible, in their opinion. They believe that everything bad is because of him. Lets be honest, the statue the Satanists suggested wasn't too subtle anyways. It was a big giant Baphomet sitting in a chair doing Christ's peace symbol, surrounded by children. It was basically a big "fuck you" to Christianity. Originally you were talking in absolutes which is why I provided counter examples, to which you reasserted an absolute. When you say absolute, are you referring to when I said "you can't bullshit me"? Because the generalization argument was just a repost of what I said earlier, but with key points highlighted. Also, I suggest going back to when I said "bullshit" and reading it again (that sounded kind of rude... sorry), because I was never talking in absolutes. I claimed that they were different from text to text (The Bible and The Qur'an) and that Muslims "often" believe that their version of Satan is just a synonym for evil. Side: Sounds fair
I often respond point by point. I sometimes do this, others I group like things together. I need to be more consistent or I can miss things...like how I missed a point earlier is due to this. This was just another instance of me pointing out your subjectivity. Gotcha. My stance is the government needs to make every possible action they do to be more objective in these issues. I feel these issues must be removed from culture in many cases as cultures change but laws themselves can cement in culture. I never said that they aren't being deceitful either, just that they're within their constitutional rights. Gotcha. If I were in charge of approving and disapproving monuments, then yeah, I would look at it from a utilitarian perspective...You and I may not be Christians, but most Americans still are and Satan is the absolute worst character in the Bible, We may be at odds here still as I see this as the majority stifling the minority. I think I may be hung up here on the issue of not allowing this statue...but possibly a Hindu one. I think I hit this enough that you know why. I am also pretty sure you mean in this instance you would disapprove...but not all? It was a big giant Baphomet sitting in a chair doing Christ's peace symbol, surrounded by children. It was basically a big "fuck you" to Christianity. This is how many Satanists view their deity. So itself isn't a big fuck you to Christianity. The placement of it next to a christian monument easily could be though. And by could be I am sure I mean yeah. But again...I am not concerned with how many of group X is upset over an issue that doesn't hurt them, especially when group both groups are to have the same protected freedoms. I will concede the placement is terrible and a denial for the suggested placement is constitutional under current laws. However this basically says that a minority group will have extremely limited venues/speech under this utilitarian concept while majority groups like Christianity will get all the venues/speech they want under current laws. I am not saying equal number of chances here, just equal chances. Sadly in this case the government should act like a parent and take away the 'toys' and not allow any religious monuments up on government land. Side: Sounds fair
I am also pretty sure you mean in this instance you would disapprove...but not all? I'm fascinated by religion... but I have little respect for a religion that builds off of another religion and then goes out of their way to disrespect it. That's what Satanism is. If it were my job to approve or disapprove of monuments, I would have a pantheon of religious monuments outside. It would be symbolic of religious tolerance, and although I would agree that Satanists deserve their right to freedom of religion, I would not allow them to have their own monument on government property. I would encourage religious tolerance, without promoting a religion that is intolerant. This is how many Satanists view their deity. So itself isn't a big fuck you to Christianity. They view their deity as mocking Jesus? Sadly in this case the government should act like a parent and take away the 'toys' and not allow any religious monuments up on government land. In this situation, I agree. Side: Sounds fair
I have little respect for a religion that builds off of another religion and then goes out of their way to disrespect it. That's what Satanism is. Christianity is as well. Look at all the borrowed traditions they have! Just saying is all. They view their deity as mocking Jesus? Err. no, as a benevolent deity who freed the people from the garden. I am speaking in general terms here. They don't view their deity mocking Jesus any more than Christians view theirs as mocking Satan. They view them at odds...semantics here! I would encourage religious tolerance, without promoting a religion that is intolerant. Well that leaves out pretty much all religions...but you already stated bring on the pantheon. Side: Sounds fair
Christianity is as well. Look at all the borrowed traditions they have! Just saying is all. "Disrespect" would be the keyword. Err. no, as a benevolent deity who freed the people from the garden. I was referring to the statue. It's clearly mocking Jesus. Well that leaves out pretty much all religions...but you already stated bring on the pantheon. Would you consider Christianity to be anti-Muslim or Hinduism to be anti-Buddhist? They may disagree with the tenets of the religions, but they are still tolerant of each other... unless they're extremists. In the Bible, Satan is basically the anti-God. He's God's opposite. In Satanism, Satan is the "good" deity and God is the bad. Satanism is anti-Christian. Just to let you know, the peace hand gesture with the thumb extended and the index and middle finger together, pointing up, is a Christian symbol, as is shown in the link I provided. The Satanists have their statue with a different hand gesture (I think it's crossed fingers, with the thumb positioned on the palm... the symbol of the occult) pointing to the sky with his right hand (the hand always used in representations of Jesus) and with his left hand he is doing the Christian gesture, pointing towards the ground. How do I know this is a Christian gesture? Because it's Jesus' name in Greek. That is why the Satanist statue is a "fuck you" to Christians. Side: Sounds fair
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Body count according to the bible: God: 2,476,633 (and counting if you include natural disasters throught history) Satan: 10 (and only because he made a bet with God, and also since God created Satan he is indirectly responsible as well) So in hindsight, satan doesnt seem like that bad of a guy if you compare him to God. Btw, if a group of white supremacists wanted to buy the birthplace of Martin Luther King Jr. And turn it into a shrine to Adolf Hitler, they would have the right to. I wouldnt like it at all, but in a democracy sometimes you have to let the bad guys win, that the price for having free speech. Side: Sounds fair
I never said that the God in the Bible isn't responsible for some messed up shit... all I'm saying is that Satan represents evil... and by the way, if you believe that Satan tempted Adam and Eve, then you believe that Satan is ultimately responsible for ALL deaths. Btw, if a group of white supremacists wanted to buy the birthplace of Martin Luther King Jr. And turn it into a shrine to Adolf Hitler, they would have the right to. I wouldnt like it at all, but in a democracy sometimes you have to let the bad guys win, that the price for having free speech. Yeah... but that's off topic. We're talking about government property. Side: but...but...
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Christianity is pretty evil dude, think about it: 1. Its symbol is a torture device 2. Its followers ate expected to drink the symbolic blood of their idol 3. Teaches us that we are all evil and sick and need to be cleansed 4. Promotes homophobia 5. Condones rape, slavery, and genocide, etc. Btw, satanism isnt really the worship of satan, its followers are atheists whom follow the teachings of Anton Levay, whom was a huge fan of Ayn Rands objectivist philosophy, it is a lot less evil than christianity Side: Sounds fair
Btw, satanism isnt really the worship of satan, its followers are atheists whom follow the teachings of Anton Levay, whom was a huge fan of Ayn Rands objectivist philosophy, it is a lot less evil than Christianity Some Satanists are theists. They may not be evil, but the devil still represents evil. Side: but...but...
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