“I could listen to internet interviews, get braille reports, etc. Atheism and blindness are not analogous.”
You could but you the same with the bible, the question is by faith in this case “blind” faith would you believe.
“We can observe Uranus with a telescope. You don't need to go there to prove its existence.”
We could remember, you are blind you must believe by the words of others. This is not a wide based question it is personal. What you believe is key; you cannot by your own ability verify the truth for yourself. Whatever you choose will be by your faith. Really you and I are both people of faith just in different things.
“No he isn't. The Christian God must be timeless, spaceless, immaterial, personal, omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent. Uranus is none of these things.”
Why must he be those things, the Christian God is God he plays by his own rules. All the things we would use to measure him with are his own. Physics are just operating set points that he put in place when he created the universe.
“If you know, you must provide evidence. Otherwise your claim cannot be accepted as fact.”
My being able to provide the evidence to you would be hard, it is much like being able to prove love. I love my wife, what proof do you require to be accepted as fact. I know what I feel, I know what I experience, I know that God is real in a personal sense to me. When God and I connect and interact through a medium such as a soul we as humans may not yet poses the ability to measure it yet.
This is true with many things in Science, IE Uranus before the 1780’s I could not have proven to you it exists, I may have believed it did but not been able to show it to you yet. Other things like Dark energy, Dark matter, earlier would be nuclear energy, x-rays, etc. until we are able to measure these things it is hard to prove them, I believe that they are all real but all of them at some point in time were just a hypothesis.
“But God is put forth as a scientific hypothesis. If it is not supported by evidence, it can be temporarily dismissed. Also, what are these "things in this world that cannot be explained through science and logic"?”
1. ESP
2. Placebo Effect
3. Déjà vu
4. Spontaneous human combustion
5. Ghosts
“That's basically Pascal's wager. Pascal's wager is a poor argument for theism, because it can be reversed so easily. For example:
There are millions of Gods throughout history. So the likelihood of picking the wrong God is astronomically high. Meaning that you might as well pick no God, enjoy your life, and die.”
I was not making an argument just stating what I believe; I will keep my God and enjoy my life, and die. I can remember what my life was like before I was saved, I am much happier now. Somebodies correct in this discussion of course I think it is me, but that’s how it goes. I must say that of all the people I have debated on this site I enjoy your input the most. Thank you.
Yes very inspiring, but i really enjoy Karsavius 6.2 -4 much deeper in the subject. It relates very well Karsavius 4.26, 27.
You should take time to compare it to Proverbs 26:5 (KJV) you would fine it enlightening.
http://www.createdebate.com/debate/show/
a few days ago.... I am new :)
I had a thought (hypothetical) if you were born blind, and one day I meet you and I told you that there was a planet called Uranus in the night sky would you believe me? There is no way for me to prove it to you, you cannot see, touch, feel, or hear it but it is there. All your life it has been there and you were never aware of it. Sure you could ask other people to verify my story, but that’s just their belief no of us have been there.
God is much the same, although I believe that he is there, and I cannot see him with my eyes, I cannot touch him, or hear his voice, but I know that he is real. There is much that we cannot measure, and there are things in this world that cannot be explained through Science and logic but that does not make it any less real.
Consider the main ends of life, one day all of us will die this is certain with no exceptions. It is the issue of what happens after we die that has sparked debates like this one for centuries. The thing is there is no way back to tell the tale the rich man tried in Luke 16. If you are right and I am wrong when I die the switch is thrown and nothing more. If I am right and I die I am off to see my God face to face, and there will my immortal soul dwell for all time. We never know when but one day it will be my time and it maybe tonight if it is I know where I will be, through faith and faith alone.
What are your thoughts?
I am a theist so this is my belief; the word spirit in terms of that third part of man (body, soul, spirit) is an old word. It is “ruach” in Hebrew, spiritus in Latin, Greek it is called pneuma. You still see pneuma used even today like pneumatic, pneumonia all associated with air or wind, breath.
Job 33.4 (KJV)
The Spirit of God hath made me, And the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
Or
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul ” (Genesis 2.7 ).
People are made up of three part the body, the soul, and the spirit.
That is very interesting, what is your take on those who have no sense of right or wrong, like Psychopaths, they lack any true remorse or have virtually no sense of morality. By most standards they are Evil due to their actions, and crimes. If Evil is a direct result of morality what motives these people to do the most profound Evil?
Point taken, I understand what you are saying I was there myself. I grew up in a home where there was no church, no mention of Jesus or God, for years I wondered what was the whole God thing about. It was when I was in high school my girlfriend then (wife now) wanted me to go to church with her. To be honest this was not high on my to do list, nothing I ever wanted to do, but I wanted to go to be with her; it’s funny looking back how God works.
Oh to make a long story short, I went several times, I did not like it, did not like the preacher or the people (way to nice and friendly for me, they were really good people I was to dumb to know it) I said this time is it this is the last time ever! That night what was going to be my last night, when I got to church there was a guest preacher in. His name was Mike a missionary form Vietnam your right I thought he was crazy. It turns out he was just what I needed, he preached about Jesus and Gods love and that’s what spoke to my heart.
He had fought in the Vietnam War for a couple of tours, when he got out he got saved somewhere along the way. Now he lives there building orphanages for homeless children. Story time is over, back to the subject at hand. God will give each and every one on Earth the opportunity to make that choice and choose their future. When Gods speaks to your heart you will know it, he will put people in your life to help you and to tell you that God is real and he cares about you, as an individual it is always personal with God.
1. Define what Evil is to you, evil by definition is “Profound immorality, wickedness, and depravity, esp. when regarded as a supernatural force.” Or “morally reprehensible: sinful, wicked”. I being a Theist have no problem with there being evil but it just sounds strange coming from a non-believer. There is evil and there is also Satan these go hand in hand, with there being good and God.
2. Oh my ….the Razor, ok this little bit philosophy dates back to Occam in the 14th century and at best it is a rule of thumb, it is not some grand law by which anything is measured, thus God is not in “violation” of the Razor. It is a helpful tool to evaluate hypnosis nothing more. Really it was not Occam’s anything Aristotle came up with “Nature operates in the shortest way possible” this was long before Occam came along. It simply looks for simple, that’s it; Violation indeed.
3. I never said there were not any more gods just saying my God is the Lord who is the most high God there are others mentioned in the Bible, like this verse, 2 Corinthians 4:4 “In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.” The devil is referred to as a god "the god of this world" more than once.
John 8:44-45
44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
Or Exodus 12:12 “ For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.”
That is a huge gamble you are taking, betting your immortal soul on that line of logic. We may not be able to control where we are born or raised but we can make our own choices once we are an adult. More people find their way to Hell than find their way to Heaven, so sad. Consider the following passages.
Matthew 7:13-14
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in there at : 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
John 10:9
9. I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture
John 14:6
6. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Ok, you are a theist so there is no question that God is real to you; and when you say God are you referring you to the Judeo-Christian God of the Bible? The God of the Bible does not send you or anyone else to Hell for murder, stealing, Rape, etc. the sin that puts people in Hell is the rejection of the free gift of salvation Jesus offers everyone.
In this life me, you, everyone has the opportunity to accept Christ as our savior this choice is ours to make this is the part people miss so often. This is a cut and dry choice not subjective, if you read any of these posts on this site you can see different people have made their choices and some are very out spoken to the that point. The Bible has many verses relating to Hell, Satan, and related topics throughout it. What is your view on these passages and what value do you place on the Bible?
I like it.... it is simple, to the point;It is also very true. I wonder if anyone ever thinks of it like that, You are really gambling on your belief that you are right. If you think of it in those terms it is very profound. To say that there is no God, no Hell, and no hear after is a huge gamble, you are betting your immortal soul on your belief that you are right... Wow.
I find that most Stereotyping and generalizations are not accurate and this is insulting. I am a born again Christian, I also have degrees in Computer Science, Psychology, and I am kicking around the idea of getting a B.S. in Chemistry in my spare time for the fun of it. So at the risk of sounding arrogant I don’t feel like I am a stupid, narrow minded, bigot simply because I am a Christian.
