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What is wrong with our society?
There are many things wrong with our society, but what are they?
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"Our founders were of a single purpose. Freedom, self governance and capitalism. Communist and Socialist ideologies seek to tear down our Constitution and create Lenin's utopia. These are lumps on the broth that clump together to make us something fundamentally different." They were of a single purpose, but disagreed on the methods. They have different views on how the country would go, based on different ideologies. Any ideology that seeks to go in a direction different from another for this country is a "lump", you just choose to only recognize those two. Once the founders established our nation, founded as a representative republic, dedicated to protecting the freedoms of its citizens and promoting free commerce and capitalism, the broth was made. Communism and socialism are very different from what was made. Yet proponents of these ideologies want to completely change our broth to something it is not. There are and always will be these other ideologies. The rub is when they try to impose themselves on what we have made. The USSR had every right to exist, as does communist China and others. The thing they don't have a right to do is subvert our form of governance. 1
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Democratic, Constitutional Socialism (modern form, not antiquated form) can exist. I'm not saying that we should implement it, because I truly don't think we should, but it is not inherently antithetical to personal freedoms, positive or negative. Regardless, the number of people in this country that are trying to push either Communism or Socialism are incredibly small, you just see attempts at pushing certain forms of Liberalism as "Communist" and "Socialist", and then react based on that misguided assumption. 1
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The truth is - very little. Take a look around - where else in the world would you rather live? We literally have to look for things to argue over - and blow up small differences into giant important diatribes. Our biggest problem really is how to get the rest of the world to where we are. 1
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Not really. We have the highest levels of religious evolution-deniers in the Christian World. Meanwhile, if your hypothesis had merit, we would expect the highly atheistic nations of Scandinavia to be a wretched wasteland. Instead, they have some of the highest standards of living and levels of happiness on the planet. Try again. 2
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Poverty, violence, education and even discrimination are improved worldwide by one core cause. Capitalist ideologies causing economies to grow. The USSR collapsed under communist ideology and Russia began to prosper when capitalism was adopted. (Currently the Russian economy as again faltering under Putin's influence.) China has prospered because of commerce rather than communism. Our power and influence have weakened as our economy has faltered under socialist programs. 1
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"Poverty, violence, education and even discrimination are improved worldwide by one core cause. Capitalist ideologies causing economies to grow." That is pretty absurd, to say there is only one cause for any of that. Changes in social norms, government spending, economic growth via capitalism, there are many factors that lead to these results. "Our power and influence have weakened as our economy has faltered under socialist programs." Not really, but if you want to oversimplify a massive and complex issue in order to score some partisan points, be my guest. The rest of us will try to have a real conversation on the issue that doesn't boil down to talking points. That is pretty absurd, to say there is only one cause for any of that. Changes in social norms, government spending, economic growth via capitalism, there are many factors that lead to these results. You listed the core cause along with two other things that have nothing to do with economic growth. If some change occurs in social norms? ---- economies are caused to grow! That is too vague to even comment on. Government spending? Governments spend money that is gathered out of the economy, then redistributed back into the same economy. No value is added to an economy by simply moving money out of one pocket and into another. Economies grow from increasing commerce. Everything else is an effect of that. "Our power and influence have weakened as our economy has faltered under socialist programs." Not really, Yes really. When government takes on socialist programs, free money, free or nearly free housing, free higher education, free birth control, free cell phones, free food, etc. These things are not able to stimulate an economy, simply became they economy has to pay for them ie. Nothing is free. You go on and have you your real conversation about imagined complexities at the core of issues. We who understand simple cause and effect will continue to explore reality. 1
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Do you want to play the source game, Daver? Where we compare different methods of measuring poverty over long periods of time? Or comparing American education, compared to 20 or 30 years ago? It really would not be a fun game, but I'll play it if you really, REALLY want to pretend that it is a game that needs to be played. You can spout your objection to facts if you like but that changes nothing. I have questioned your assertions about poverty and education. You want to say I'm playing a game rather than offer anything to back your claim. Could it be that I'm offering facts where you have none. Here is more: discrimination is down? Ferguson MO, Sanford FL, New York NY. Riots, marches, demonstrators calling for "dead cops now". Our own DOJ refusing to persue black crimes. Eric Holder going to Ferguson on a witchhunt. Obama saying "police acted stupidly" Ask Al Sharpton if discrimination is down. 1
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I am accusing you of playing a game because you are comparing US education to other countries, and poverty to less than a decade ago: It isn't hard to compare poverty and education to 50 or 100 years ago and see objective improvements. Yes discrimination is DEFINITELY down: Do we have slavery? Do we have Jim Crowe? Can African Americans vote? You are pretending that because some discrimination still exists, it couldn't have possibly gotten any better. It's absurdity at its finest. Comparing our education results to 50 years ago is somehow invalid and the fact that 12 other nations are ahead of us in education is also without meaning, what would qualify a measure of improvement for you. Discrimination has shifted over the last 50 years from overt to covert. But then you say we can't see into the past so how can you claim any improvement there? 1
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Comparing our education to other countries says absolutely nothing as to whether or not we have been improving from our own historical standards. Not sure what you mean when you said comparing our education results to 50 years ago is somehow invalid, though. Elaborate? "Discrimination has shifted over the last 50 years from overt to covert. But then you say we can't see into the past so how can you claim any improvement there" Lynchings don't happen anymore. Improvement. Minorities can vote. Improvement. Black men are not arrested simply for looking at white women. Improvement. I could go on. Yes, discrimination is more covert than it used to be, but it is also not as bad as it used to be. This is your statement It isn't hard to compare poverty and education to 50 or 100 years ago and see objective improvements. Whoops misread isn't. SBT Not improved only shifted. You are pointing to the overt stuff. You and I both know discrimination is still with us and is virtually unchanged in its impact. Back to the OP: Our constution is under attack from the left. The left has been hijacked by liberal progressives. Liberal progressives are trying to bring about a socialist state in our nation. 1
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Ah, and now you just repeat the same claims, undermine by the very facts of political ideology: If they are liberals, they are not trying to bring about a socialist state. Liberals do not WANT a socialist state, socialists do. The number of socialists in this country is quite small, and they have no real power, short of Bernie Sanders. Our constitution has been under attack from both the left and the right, you just ignore it when it comes from the right. And you are also completely ignoring that the "covert" discrimination is nowhere near as bad as the rampant systemic discrimination and oppression of our past. Not sure why, or for what purpose. You are confused by the renaming of those who subvert us. In the first half of the 20th century communists were discovered subverting our government. They renamed themselves as socialists. When that name was recognized as also subverting our government, another name was chosen -progressives. Throughout this time their objectives have remained unchanged. Obama is quoting from Lenin and Alinsky when he talks about social justice and taxing the rich to level the playing field. You may well have been unaware of these things, but now you know. 1
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Revisionist history will do you no good, Daver. I am using the definitions of the actual terms. Obama is not quoting Lenin, I don't care about your boogeyman Alinsky, and Obama's actual ACTIONS have not demonstrated anything you have claimed. If he WAS trying to turn us into socialist state, then he is really, REALLY bad at it. Like extremely bad at it. Revisionist history. Is that what you have to refute facts. You can use all the terms you wish, but facts are facts. Terms have meaning. The fact that you don't care is unimportant. Obama has taken a giant step toward socialist healthcare. Obama has filled the NLRB with union sympathizers. Obama has packed the supreme court with liberals. Obama has given effective amnesty to 5 million illegal aliens. 3
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Right then, I can see ill have to make it more clear to you. Obama has taken a giant step toward socialist healthcare. Socialist Obama has filled the NLRB with union sympathizers. Unions have been aligned with the socialist liberal progressive ideology for decades. Obama has packed the supreme court with liberals. Remember the sequence of name changing. Communist, socialist, liberal - remember. Obama has given effective amnesty to 5 million illegal aliens. Without the action of Congress. A clear attack on the Constitution. Lenin ................ socialist utopia 2
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Somehow just saying the word socialism is supposed to be scary, yet many of the most popular policies in our country are considered socialistic. The military, police, fire, emergency services, judicial system, prisons, food and drug inspection, public airwaves, national infrastructure, Social Security, Medicaid, Medicare, the VA, parks, libraries, student loans, public universities, universal mail delivery, etc. (Note: many of these things don't meet the technical definition of socialism, but rather the type of socialism that is attributed to liberals out of ignorance) 1
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Again: One can wish to adopt a socialized institution without seeking socialism itself. Obama's "giant step" is really rather pathetic, considering how quickly he dropped the Public Option. Second, as soon as you said "socialist liberal", you lost all credibility. Those are two different ideologies that are at odds with each other. Yes, they are liberal, and yes, there are plenty of issues with Unions now adays. Third, Conservative presidents pack the Supreme Court with Conservatives, Liberals do so with Liberals. That said, Sotomoyor (sp) and Kagan are hardly hardcore Liberals, especially when sitting next to the likes of Ginsburg. And no, Communist,socialist and liberal are not interchangeable, no matter how much you want them to be. "Obama has given effective amnesty to 5 million illegal aliens. Without the action of Congress. A clear attack on the Constitution. " That has absolutely nothing to do with socialism, though I do oppose that move of his rather strongly. Second, as soon as you said "socialist liberal", you lost all credibility. Please try to remember that communists have used all these names to hide behind. As I have explained they don't just refer to ideologies but also to those hiding among us. Conservative presidents pack the Supreme Court with Conservatives, Liberals do so with Liberals. liberals is also a name that commies are hiding behind. "Obama has given effective amnesty to 5 million illegal aliens. Without the action of Congress. A clear attack on the Constitution. That has absolutely nothing to do with socialism. Again the same guys hide behind all these names. When conservative judges are the majority on the supreme court, the constitution is not subverted with an eye to overthrowing it. 1
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I do not care what communist have used, Democrats have not acted in ways that indicate they are either socialists, or communists. Your Red Scare era claims do nothing to change that. When you can't even recognize that Liberals are not Communists, you, again, preclude any reasonable conversation on these issues. "When conservative judges are the majority on the supreme court, the constitution is not subverted with an eye to overthrowing it." No, it just leads to upholding segregated schools and other horrifying institutions. Can you have a single conversation on this issue without the ridiculous "Liberals are Communists" trope? Democrats have not acted in ways that indicate they are either socialists, or communists. the Democratic party has been hijacked by the bad guys. Its no longer your grandma's democratic party. This is the true cause of the gridlock in Washington. This is what has changed that now blocks compromise. Can you have a single conversation on this issue without the ridiculous "Liberals are Communists" trope? Once again the name liberal is, in addition to being an ideology, also a mask being used by the bad guys. Until you understand that fact, you are going to remain confused. The OP asked what's wrong with our society. From a political perspective, I have given my considered opinion. That then is yours. 2
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This is the true cause of the gridlock in Washington. I call bullshit. I already relayed the cause. A deliberate strategy established by the Republican leadership to completely block everything. They have admitted this meeting and have not denied anything reported about it. They have made additional statements supporting this as their policy ("my number one priority is making sure president Obama’s a one-term president." - McConnell) and have even stopped supporting their own policies ref ref ref ref ref. 3
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I think it was purely a political calculation - Obama promised change, let's prevent that change. Any negative effect generally gets blamed on the President as a focal point rather than Congress, etc. And the 2008 election was so close to giving the dems a filibuster-proof majority (which, after Specter changed parties, Frankin's election was finally decided, and Kennedy's replacement was sworn in, they actually got for a few months), they knew that Republicans would have to be in lock-step in order to block legislation. To me, wanting the country to suffer for political gain is pretty close to treason. No? As far as race goes - I think it plays a part in their calculations since they have to appeal to that part of their base, but was only a small factor (since those people are typically going to vote for them no matter what.) 1
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Nice try, DAver, but they started blocking him from day one. They declared it was their mission from day one, before they knew anything about his "fundamental transformation" (still remains a load of bs, by the way). Now can you point to any rhetoric I have employed? And can you try a tactic other than "you know you secretly agree with me, admit it". 2
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Its no longer your grandma's democratic party. Yet nearly every action you're afraid of happened during "grandma's democratic party." 1
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"Democrats have not acted in ways that indicate they are either socialists, or communists. the Democratic party has been hijacked by the bad guys. Its no longer your grandma's democratic party. This is the true cause of the gridlock in Washington. This is what has changed that now blocks compromise." Absurd. Both parties have changed immensely from what they have been, and Republicans have refused Compromise just as steadfastly as Democrats. The fact that you refer to Democrats as "the bad guys" shows how deep your partisanship is running, which undermines any ability for you to compromise. "Can you have a single conversation on this issue without the ridiculous "Liberals are Communists" trope? Once again the name liberal is, in addition to being an ideology, also a mask being used by the bad guys." No, it REALLY isn't. Liberals are Liberals. That's about it. The fact that you refer to Democrats as "the bad guys" shows how deep your partisanship is running, which undermines any ability for you to compromise. You continue to missunderstand. True Democrats are not the bad guys, they have been hijacked by the bad guys. Get it? Liberals are Liberals. I never said otherwise. Again the bad guys have stolen the name and hidden themselves behind it. Get it? 1
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There are no "True Democrats" or "True Republicans". Both political parties undergo substantial changes. My statement about your use of "bad guys" still stands. "Liberals are Liberals. I never said otherwise. Again the bad guys have stolen the name and hidden themselves behind it. Get it?" No, you have said that people who are, in fact liberals, are instead closet Socialists or closet Communists, despite the fact that they are liberals. 1
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No, you have said that people who are, in fact liberals, are instead closet Socialists or closet Communists, despite the fact that they are liberals. NO I have said that people who are in fact the bad guys sometimes use the mask if liberals or progressives or even socialists, bur rarely their true name communists. 1
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Obama has given effective amnesty to 5 million illegal aliens. Without the action of Congress. A clear attack on the Constitution. Was amnesty a clear attack on the Constitution when every Republican since Eisenhower did it? 1
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Previous response to you: "These were all executive grants (without Congress) some were modifications of recent legislation, some weren't - some were done in anticipation of legislation, others weren't. Each Republican President did at least one action without Congress." He even included a reference. 1
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Your link specifically shows that it was not passed through Congress. The bill passed by congress: "had the unanticipated effect of splitting up freshly-legalized parents from their illegally-present minor children who did not qualify for relief." "So Reagan, seeing this family unity problem that Congress had not anticipated or addressed when it granted amnesty to millions of parents, issued an executive order to defer the removal of children of the people who had applied for immigration amnesty under Congress’ new law." An executive action - specifically not having Congress fix the flawed bill. "A few years later, Bush 41 extended this bit of administrative grace to these same children plus certain spouses of the aliens" Again - specifically avoiding Congressional action. It also completely ignores Extended Voluntary Departure for Poles done in 1981, 1984, and 1987, and the 1987 deferral for "compelling or humanitarian factors" Regarding the '87 deferral: "Legislation addressing this population was introduced throughout the 1980s, but not enacted." - ref 1
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They are hardly the "rightest of the right". They are, generally, the more Libertarian Wing of the Republican Party. Then you have the Neo-Conservatives under Bush who violated Due Process and attacked all maners of individual security, you have Social/Evangelical Conservative who have (and continue to) attack both the Establishment Clause and the Equal Protections Clause in order to push their own social agendas. There's two specific ones to start you off. These so called attacks from the right are not directed at bringing down our nation, by subverting our social structure. They are not directed at attacking religion, they are not directed at introduction of more socialist programs. They are not directed at fundamentally changing America into some socialist utopia. 3
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Utter stupidity. Having a different idea about the best way to run a country is not the same as trying to bring down our nation... Both Democrats and Republican have proposed amendments to the Constitution (recently Republicans have proposed more than Dems) ref "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." Only one of those things is directed at self - the rest are directed at society as a whole. Post offices, patents, military, justice system, etc. - our government (and any sensible one) seeks to balance individual liberty with the common good. 1
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And now you prove my previous point: Because they are closer to your ideology, and fit more in line with your opinions, you don't see them as malicious. When you believe that people of differing ideologies are inherently malicious, attacking your country and "taking it from you", then you are precluding a rational conversation on the topic. I know you are better than this Daver, we have had conversations that didn't boil down to "people I don't like are evil". Then am I to understand that you find that an ideology which seeks to overthrow a nation founded on individual freedom, should for some reason be allowed to do so. People who come upon a national ideology that conflicts with their own, do NOT have a just reason to attack it and attempt to change it to siut themselves. There is no such thing as evil. People can find freedom and capitalism as wrong headed as they want. The rub comes when they try to impose their own ideology in place of it. 1
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Again, Liberals do not belong to an ideology that seeks to overthrow a nation, and socialism does not inherently seek to do so either. Communism, yes, but we are not speaking of Communists. Just because one seeks a change that you do not like, does not imply that they are seeking to "overthrow" the government or the nation. 1
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"These ideologies" False. Only one ideology is present, and that is Liberalism (in varying forms), and it is not "fundamentally" transforming this nation at all. Wrong again http://www.wnd.com/2010/08/191605/ Its not your grandma's democratic party. Get real 1
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Are you seriously of a mind that is a legitimate or reasonable story to tout as proof of your claim? That is the ULTIMATE Confirmation bias: Take a crack pot claim by a crack pot group posted on crack pot websites and pretend it is proof of the crack pot claims you have been making the entire time. There is no game to be played over this fact. Our economy is no longer growing. The root cause of this is government over regulation and taxation. The more undue regulation our government imposes, the more our economy is weakened. The more commerce is taxed the more it is stifled. This is my answer to the political aspect of the OP. What is yours? 2
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Don't split hairs with me. You know perfectly well that our economy is suffering through the weakest recovery in decades. You also know that is what I'm pointing to. Our economy is clearly blunted by companies doing business off-shore, and you know why that is happening. Don't fixate on a word and try to discredit an argument. If you have any sort of valid counter to the fact that growing economies spring from capitalist and free commerce, then make it. Your word games don't cut it. 3
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word games + Don't split hairs Your entire argument rested on the fact that our economy was not growing and I showed that assertion to be flatly wrong. (It is up to you to figure out what sources led you to that belief so that you might discount them in the future.) Certainly not a splitting of hairs. the weakest recovery in decades The reason the recovery wasn't faster was in part because of a major reason for the collapse in the first place - housing. Houses are where most Americans except the very very wealthy have most of their net worth. When they went underwater, they lost their savings - usually how people buy large ticket items, start new small businesses, etc. And any that had to short-sell their house or file bankruptcy tanked their credit for years. Additionally, you're still trying to have it both ways - the Republicans were right to block him and the slow recovery is a result of his policies. See also Moreover, during the Reagan and Bush recessions, public sector jobs increased to take up the slack, under Obama public sector jobs are down (reiterating my point that Republicans no longer support their own prior policies) - ref companies doing business off-shore Several reasons - largely that our trade agreements don't create a level playing field. Here, you have to comply with labor, environmental standards, etc. If the cost difference is enough to cover the costs of manufacturing oversees (shipping, additional lead time, translation overhead, oversight, etc.), then it would be logical for a company to move a job oversees. We shouldn't therefore remove those protections here, we should ramp up their enforcement with our trading partners. growing economies spring from capitalist and free commerce Name any place in the history of the world with successful laissez-faire capitalism that we should compare to. Sustained successful economies spring from a balance of capitalism and redistribution for the common good. 1
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It is the weakest recovery in decades, but it is still a recovery, which implies some levels of growth. Companies doing business off shore is the result of a variety of factors, but you just want to blame everything on the government, instead of recognizing the real world ramification of globalization and the lack of a necessarily highly educated workforce to help combat some aspects of it. Additionally, him pointing out that there is growth when you claimed there wasn't is not a "word game", and it was a valid counter to what you actually said. If you want to change the meaning of what you said that is fine, but to call him out for responding to the words you actually used is ridiculous. Growing economies can also spring from an abundance of natural resources developed within hybrid systems (see: Norway), by the way. It isn't "Pure Capitalism or Nothing!", as you make it out to be. 1
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It is true that many men have turned from the mercy of God, but many of our problems are humanly linked. We cause the problems in society. God created us very intellectually. We are capable of great things. I believe it's what we decide to do with those great things that will decide if we are functioning well as a society. -1
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The Progressive movement is destroying this nation. People are becoming welfare addicts expecting tax payers to support them. This will end in bankruptcy because fewer and fewer people will work hard only to have a corrupt Government redistribute their money to give to free loaders. The progressive movement encourages laziness and irresponsibility while punishing responsibility. NO QUESTION ABOUT IT! 2
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Welfare programs like "The War On Poverty" are an admitted failure yet progressives on Congress continue to expand them. The government advertises the SNAP program in the media! Result --- SNAP card usage is at all time highs, while Obama claims economic progress. Unemployment benefits were extended to nearly two years. Result --- People stayed unemployed longer. Side note: When the benefits expired, unemployment rate dropped. Hmmmm 1
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And there are multiple military programs that are admitted failures yet Conservatives in Congress continue to push for them to gain support back home. As for the unemployment rate, that was the REPORTED unemployment rate. It wasn't that the employment rate increased, it was that fewer people reported being unemployed, which happens for a variety of reasons. And economic progress can occur while SNAP usage is an all time high. It means there is a lopsided recovery. |