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Problem:The solution to the age-old question, "What came first, the chicken or the egg?" depends on whether you are a creationist or an evolutionist. The answer, however, is still the same if you assume that the egg in question is a chicken egg. "The chicken came first." If the egg in question is NOT a chicken egg, then the egg came first because there were dinosaur eggs before there were chickens.
The crux of the problem hinges on the definition of a chicken egg. Is a chicken egg an egg that comes from a chicken or an egg that contains a chicken? Many people think of a chicken egg as a chicken eggshell that contains a chicken fetus. In other words, the chicken and the egg problem exist because people typically think of a chicken egg as a single entity (chicken eggshell and chicken fetus together). I will attempt to show that this configuration (chicken eggshell and chicken fetus together) is not necessary in order to create a chicken and that an egg should thus be classified by the species that laid it rather than by what species it contains.
I think that it is safe to say that the chicken fetus is the most obvious part of a chicken egg. The eggshell, however, is trickier because if the eggshell contains any genetic material, then one could argue that the eggshell is part of the fetus and thus the chicken egg could be classified as a single entity. Since the eggshell is made of calcium, we can safely say that the chicken egg consists of two distinct parts (the chicken eggshell and chicken fetus).
A problem still exists, however. Who generates the eggshell? If the fetus generates the eggshell then one could argue that the eggshell is part of the fetus and thus a fertilized chicken egg could be classified as a single entity. But there exists unfertilized eggs. This means that a fetus is not necessary in order to generate the eggshell. Maybe all that is necessary to generate the eggshell is the unfertilized genetic material provided by the hen. Since the complexity of generating an eggshell is beyond the capability of unfertilized genetic material, and since the unfertilized genetic material belongs to (and is generated by) the hen, it is safe to say that the hen generates the eggshell.
This reduces the eggshell to the status of a container. If the eggshell is nothing more than a container, then almost any container with egg like properties should be sufficient to incubate a chicken fetus. If an eggshell/container is capable of carrying almost any fetus of a different species to term, then we cannot classify the eggshell/container by its content. Rather, we should classify the eggshell/container by the species that created the eggshell/container. For example, if scientists were successful in hatching a chicken from a plastic container, would you then call the plastic container and the chicken fetus (together) a chicken egg? Or would you say that the plastic container held a chicken fetus? As another example, if scientists were able to extract the fertilized genetic material from a chicken egg and insert it into a duck egg, would the duck egg be reclassified as a chicken egg? Or would you maintain the "duck egg" classification and state that the duck egg in question contains a chicken fetus? My belief is that (in both examples) most people would choose the later (maintain the "plastic container/duck egg" classification and add the "chicken fetus" qualifier). In other words, an egg should be classified by the species that laid it rather than by what species it contains.
Once we agree on the definition of a chicken egg (an eggshell generated by a hen regardless of content), the solution is trivial.
Solution:
Creationist: God said, "Let there be a hen." Otherwise, who would sit on the egg? Alternatively, God could have said, "Let there be a rooster." and then decided that the rooster needed companionship and so He created the hen and they then begot the egg. NOTE: Since God is perfect, it is unlikely that he said, "Let there be a chicken egg. Oh, and I almost forgot, let there be a hen to sit on that chicken egg. Ooh, wait, and a rooster!"
Evolutionist: Some animal (not a chicken) laid an egg (not a chicken egg). The fetus inside the egg underwent some minor evolutionary change that resulted into a hen. This hen then laid the first chicken egg. Alternatively, the result was a rooster. The rooster then mated with some animal (not a chicken) that laid an egg (not a chicken egg, since the rooster's DNA could not have affected the egg). The result was (eventually) a hen who then laid the first chicken egg.
Chicken and the Egg, Alternate Solution
A chicken and an egg are lying in bed. The chicken is leaning against the headboard smoking a cigarette with a satisfied smile on its face. The egg, looking a bit ticked off, grabs the sheet, rolls over and says ... Well, I guess we finally answered "THAT question!"
It's crazy how we can look at this from difference beliefs such as scientific to religion.. If we believe in god and he made all things then the chicken came first. Then there is evaluation, I myself side with god, because he made man, then he made women from the rib of Adam. They made children and so on. God created two of each animal and they produced off spring. Of coures this is my view and there are so many other takes on this subject all of with can have a logical reason behind it. But most of us have faith in one thing or another, wether it be a job offer, to relationships. We all have faith.. So chicken or the egg? This question has stumped so many people, but if no one is in the woods when a tree falls, does it make a sound?
I can assure that non chicken eggs existed well before chickens. Besides, the first chicken egg ever laid was done so by an immediate ancestor that was quite similar to but just dissimilar enough to not fall into the "chicken" category.
Like, an actual person? Do have any proof of this?
Regardless, whether or not "someone" laid the first chicken egg is completely irrelevant to whether or not the chicken preceded the egg, or vice versa.
I ask for proof of your claim that "someone" laid the first egg, and you omit. Fine.
I point out that whether or not "someone" did lay the first egg is entirely irrelevant as to whether or not the chicken preceded the egg (as the chicken could have existed before this "someone" laid the egg, and this "someone" could have laid the first egg before the first chicken arrived) You "dont agree"? Brilliant! Your reasoning clearly fails support your ultimate conclusion, and it is an absurd conclusion one to boot. You can deny both of these things if you please.
You're reminded you that there are fossilized eggs that clearly existed before any god damn chicken walked the earth, and you "dont agree"? Sure thing!
I assert that, according to the theory of evolution, the first chicken came from an egg that was laid by the something similar but not quite a chicken, and you "dont agree"? Fantastic! I wish that I could pick and choose what I agree with, and what I don't agree with, I'd sleep a lot better at night.
BTW, I'm aware that you're the one who downvoted me. You and I were the only users with accounts on the site at 1am, except for maybe mucka...
LOL. Are you sure that you're referring to the conversation that we're having now?
The fact that eggs dont come from nowhere is proof enough.
The fact that eggs "dont come from nowhere" is not "proof"; that doesn't banish the fossilized eggs that we have now from the metaphysical plane. These two things are not mutually exclusive. I never claimed that the eggs simply emerged from nowhere, either.
I've already explained how, following the course of evolution and the assumption that chickens would've evolved into their current state without humans, the first chicken egg would have predated the first chicken. thousandin1 has explained how humans personally witnessed the emergence of the chicken, since we originally bred them from jungle fowl.
I dont agree with your views, just get over it.
Wonderful! I'm still going to put you on the hot seat.
I'm pretty sure that you were exercising a certain knee-jerk ban reflex when you downvoted me for disagreeing with you. Just saying.
The only reason why there is now drama is that instead of addressing my arguments, or admitting that you're wrong, you're passive aggressively downvoting my comments.
I wouldn't have persisted if you hadn't downvoted me, Dana, but it's obvious that you just did it again. I'm also aware that you pull this charade with other debaters and wonder why they eventually snap at you.
I'm not going to keep debating on this. I can only hope that you'll somehow figure this out on your own.
Its not wrong to question things. I hope you dont expect me to stop questioning things. Dissent is healthy. I dont play games and you really need to calm down. I have not done anything wrong to you. Nothing is wrong with downvoting. Andy gave us that feature when we signed up. Stop playing the victim. Im not being abusive.
I don't see how dissent is either good or bad, it's in what way and from what that matters.
I dont play games and you really need to calm down.
I'm perfectly calm! Don't tell me how to live my life! reveals chainsaw from under chair, adjusting a tie and wiping some blood drawn from its last use, screams some drunken and incoherent slurs at Dana's general direction and promptly falls out the chair in a drunken stupor. The ground begins to shake violently, and the glorious paintings of Jesus riding a panther through the firestorms of WWII fall off the walls. The aged mahogany floors split and bright lights and tons of awesome fog burst out. When the light fades, and the fog clears there is nothing left but a bone-dry flask. An infant is heard wailing in the distance.
I have not done anything wrong to you. Nothing is wrong with downvoting.
Except when it's used to brigade, or as a "disagree" button. You're not supposed to use it as the latter. I'm an active member of another website that utilizes this function, and I used to be an even more active user of another that also had an upvote/downvote system.
Andy gave us that feature when we signed up.
That doesn't mean that you can use it however you please.
Stop playing the victim. Im not being abusive.
That took a weird turn. I never claimed that you are being abusive towards me. How am I playing the victim?
However, the chicken or egg debate is not why I'm "ticked off", your insistence that you're justified in using the downvote button to censor those that you disagree with is why I'm upset.
I get downvoted all the time and I dont care. Like I said before, its really sad you get pissed off over a minor disagreement over nothing. Im not taking away anyones right to free speech. If you have the right to free speech,so do I.
You post maybe two dozen comments a day that are one or two (short) sentence replies, this indicates to me that you crave attention to the point of being demanding of it. Of course, there are other things that lead me to believe this:
1) Your refusal to ever admit when you're wrong.
2) Your constant habit of attacking (downvoting and banning) those that disagree with you.
3) Your annoying (albeit benign) habit of reposting the same or similar debates to solicit responses.
4) Creating debates that you seem to utilize solely to have an audience for your rants.
5) You have six six separate links in your profile that either showcase your one line "zingers" that you've wrote to those who are not supportive of your lifestyle, or disagree with your views, you even put your freaking postal code there.
6) Your constant switching cycle of fringe views, although the "my body, my choice" sentiment remains
I might expect this of someone roughly my age, but you, Sitara, are arrogant, and a pathological drama llama. You probably even get a kick out of replying with vague two sentence responses so that you can have the last word and view your wimpy replies as "putting me in my place".
Like I said before, its really sad you get pissed off over a minor disagreement over nothing.
That's absurd! I already explained why I was pissed off, it had nothing to do with the fact that I disagree with you. I think that it's already been established that you are the one who can't handle disagreement, and as a result, you try to use as many means at your disposal as possible to subvert any dissent from your views.
And, when I am offended, I don't half-heartedly pretend to be calm and then take it out on people who don't deserve it in a way as passive aggressively as possible. I also don't dismiss confrontation for my actions as senseless rage.
Im not taking away anyones right to free speech.
If you're referring to my use of "censor", are you seriously suggesting that I accused you of attempting to violate my freedom of speech?
If you have the right to free speech,so do I.
Ironclad reasoning, Dana. Although, you seemed to be miss out on the part that this is a privately owned website, thus freedom of speech is irrelevant.
You need to stop the drama. Im not hurting anyone. Im not even swearing yet you make a big deal out of something that doesnt matter. I dont swear, I dont abuse, Im just trying to have a respectful debate. Im not forcing my views on anyone. Im not a drama llama. Im a good person. I help people, I dont swear anymore, and I have not once attacked you.
You do realize that it won't stop with me as long as you continue your "downvote comments that I don't agree with" charade, right?
Im not hurting anyone.
Oh boy, when did I ever say that?
Im not even swearing yet you make a big deal out of something that doesnt matter.
lolwut? Because removing someone from your ally list and downvoting their comments certainly isn't making a big deal out of something that doesn't matter. Right?
I dont swear,
Yes you do. You haven't sworn in this conversation. Not like swearing is a big deal.
I dont abuse,
You are abusing the downvote feature, you've abused the ban feature no less often than you use it as intended. And, apparently you have a history of doing this with other users.
Im just trying to have a respectful debate.
Right, because "good lordy child" is clearly a respectful way to address your debater.
Im not forcing my views on anyone.
Your nobel prize will arrive in the mail shortly.
Im not a drama llama.
You still have yet to figure out that saying the opposite of what the other person says is not debating.
Im a good person. I help people,
So? Assuming that this is true, it doesn't invalidate my claim.
I dont swear anymore
I already covered this.
, and I have not once attacked you.
Except for, you know, the downvoting and talking down to me. Both were clearly aimed at slighting me, you know.
Ah good you do it to other people too. You're completely ignoring his arguments. Can't you understand why people get pissed off. Someone writes a well thought out paragraph and you write "no I disagree" without addressing any of his points. That is NOT debate.
Chickens are one of the closest relatives of the dinosaurs> chickens are descendants of dinosaurs> dinosaurs laid eggs. At the very least, the last species on the evolutionary timeline that lead to the chicken (what chickens evolved from) laid eggs, so the egg had to have come first, before the chicken ever even evolved into being. Right?
Chickens are close relatives of dinosaurs, just like you said. Chickens were probably made from a genetic mistake or over a long period of time and evolution.
Because the first chickens WERE hybrid junglefowl that had been subjected to domestication. 'Chicken' isn't simply a species- it is a domesticated species. They weren't chickens until they were domesticated.
Remember, the question is the chicken or the egg- not the chicken and an egg laid by a chicken. The latter has a more obvious answer.
It's simple, the egg came first. For the sake of the argument, we are going to assume that evolution is correct (if we assumed creationism was correct; neither came first, god did). In order to find out which came first, one would need to identify which chicken was truly the FIRST chicken. Since evolution is an ongoing process, even chickens themselves have evolved over time. This means that the very first chicken egg (which would hatch into the very first chicken) would have had to come from an organism which was not yet defined as a chicken. Therefore, the egg came first because the organism which laid the very first chicken egg was not yet a chicken.
It's simple, the egg came first. For the sake of the argument, we are going to assume that evolution is correct (if we assumed creationism was correct; neither came first, god did). In order to find out which came first, one would need to identify which chicken was truly the FIRST chicken. Since evolution is an ongoing process, even chickens themselves have evolved over time. This means that the very first chicken egg (which would hatch into the very first chicken) would have had to come from an organism which was not yet defined as a chicken. Therefore, the egg came first because the organism which laid the very first chicken egg was not yet a chicken.