Clockwork universe vs Free will
given the same nature and nurture would you always make the same choice?
Clockwork universe
Side Score: 10
|
 |
Free will
Side Score: 14
|
|
|
|
|
3
points
here's a thought experiment - imagine a parallel universe where everything up until now is exactly the same as our current universe - you have the same parents, same genes, same atmosphere, same colds, same exact experience your whole life. Every coin flip has had the same result – everything exactly the same. Now you are given a choice of 3 doors to choose from – would you pick the same door in that universe as you would in this one? I believe the inevitable answer is yes – everything that went into your decision making process is the same and the result will be the same. Now, how is this evidence for a predetermined universe? If the answer to the above question is yes, then everything that goes into a choice is physical, and there is no ethereal free will. How do I explain what we perceive as instances where we make a choice? There are3 things we take into account when we “make a choice”: our nature (genes, etc.), our nurture (all external forces – the environment, etc.), and our experience based on consequences to our prior “choices”. The latter can be excluded when we discuss our very first “choice” since we will not yet have had any consequences as a result of our “choice”. Therefore, the only contributing factors that go into our first choice (whether to smile at mom or whatever), have all been external forces, and if given those same external forces (same biology and same exact environment, etc.) – the resulting “decision” will be the same. And the consequences to that “choice” will become our experience, but in actuality it was based on wholly external factors. As we get older, our perception of what the available options are for a given instance grows, but our weighing of those factors, and the ultimate result will be based on a based on a past that is based on factors that do not include free will. Is there randomness? I do not believe so. Moreover, I do not think randomness would equate to free will; whatever rules govern the randomness (e.g. quantum physics, etc.) would be more physical processes, and not free will. I know that there are many heavy implications to this argument (do we imprison people who had no free will, etc.), but I do not believe implications make an argument more or less valid, so please try to refrain. I propose a possible science experiment for the MIT types to test the theory – though it will be difficult if not impossible: have 2 cloned mice (or even simpler animal) and expose them to, as near as possible, the same environment (this, of course, is the difficult part since if one gets a cold the other doesn’t get, their experience will be different) – then put them in a maze and see if they make the same exact choices. Side: Clockwork universe
1
point
1
point
I agree with you in general. However I think that certain different choices would be made in that parallel universe. I might open door 1 and he might open door 2. Either way each decision in each universe will have been predetermined and those decisions would've occured. There's no 'true' free will. What ever I'm going to do.. I would've done any way. I try and change my actions - I was supposed to change my actions accordingly. Side: Clockwork universe
1
point
|
The two options are not mutually exclusive. When "clockwork" becomes sufficiently sophisticated -- sophisticated enough to be called intelligent -- it no longer operates by the same rules as non-intelligent objects. All "free-will" means is that an entity is capable of interpreting the world around it and taking actions based on those interpretations. Free-will is just another word for intelligence. Side: free will
But even in intelligent beings, is there any true free will? The decisions you make are based on your nature and your experiences, right? You make the decisions, but being yourself and having the experiences you do, could you make any others? Or is there true free will, in which two people who are precisely the same and have the same experiences, could make two separate choices? I freakin' love this discussion. This is exactly the kind of thing I ask myself. Side: free will
The idea of "true free will" is logically impossible. If something exists, it must be a collection of the fundamental materials of the universe, stuff like matter and energy. These fundamental materials are governed by the laws of physics. Therefore, everything that exists must ultimately be governed by the laws of physics. And that means there is no true free-will. The only way true free will could exist is if an entity could operate outside the physical laws of the universe. And in that case it wouldn't actually exist... at least not in the way we normally think of existence. But I think, normally, when people say "free-will" they don't really mean true-free-will, they mean intelligence. If you put a rock at the top of a hill, it rolls down. It doesn't have free-will. But if you put a person at the top of a hill, they could do any number of things. Because they have "free-will" -- or in other words, they are intelligent; they can interpret the world around them and take actions based on those interpretations. Side: free will
1
point
Now that's an interesting distinction! Can you elaborate on what you might think the tipping point from clockwork to free will (intelligence) is? I'm not sure if there is enough information to dispute clockworks principals of evolution where the last begets the next based solely on environmental variables. If clockwork is simply an evolution to intelligence, then it's still clockwork. I'm starting to confuse myself, now I can't think if I'm supporting or disputing..... hmmm.....my head hurts. Side: free will
I would say the tipping point is a brain. Arrange millions of neurons in just such a way and you get this emergent phenomenon known as intelligence. I think when we say "clockwork" what we really mean is "effected by the laws of physics". If something exists, then it must be effected by the laws of physics. Therefore, everything that exists is "clockwork". Although when clockwork gets sophisticated enough, it sort of transcends its primitive state and becomes something greater. It's like painting: Put thousands of random paint strokes on a canvas and you have a big mess. But arrange them in just such a way and you get the Mona Lisa. Same thing with atoms and intelligence. Side: free will
1
point
You have neglected a simple but important notion. If one chooses to cross through no doors, or chooses edge in a coin toss, then free will is exercised. While you are mostly correct, given the same variables, the same choices are likely to occur, there is always a slim chance of "no" and a chance for "edge". Think about it, if people did not choose new paths, the achuelian hand axe would still be the tool of choice. Obviously someone said, "You know something, this choice stinks, I'm going left instead, hence...free will exercised. Yes influenced by environmental variables, but choices are rarely singular and clearly defined. Side: free will
1
point
my contention is that all of the factors that would make a person choose none or edge in this universe would also exist in the parallel universe, and you would chose it in the parallel universe only if you would also chose it in this one. People can combine their intelligence (biology) and experiences (based on prior experiences, which are based on prior experiences, etc. back to the point where they are based solely on external factors) to invent new things, but this is not free will, but a result of nature + nurture + experience which is congruent with my initial line of reasoning. Side: Clockwork universe
1
point
If your saying that you automatically choose it in one universe and then in the other, then only one universe actually made a choice since one affected the other. So you've actually created free will in one and imposed that will on the other. So the argument is circular since there is no chance of free will to exist in one of the realms. Yes environmental factors influence but they do not dictate. If I am cold. Does the universe say I use a coat or a sweater? It does neither, it only dictates the environment (the cold), not my choice of interaction. So by my own free will I choose a coat or a sweater, or nothing at all. Environment and experience may encourage invention on the course of life, but I contest there are several courses and existence is not so singularly linear, but rather a multitude of paths all yielding unique results. Side: free will
The creator basically had created two concepts in this universe. First one is the non-living thing, which have pre-determined characteristics & features dictated by nature or the creator, but having no free will to decide its movements at each moment. Next is the Living thing, which has a free will to control the non-living things,as well. But note a very important point that a living thing has a free will to alter the movements of a non-living thing but not the pre determined features & characteristics of a non living thing. And now the reasons of why he created two concepts: The creator is actually in the process of conducting experiments & researches on creation of Universes. The creator after igniting a big bang or any other similar activity, actually watches, monitors, learns & understands the consequences of its creation. For this experiment the creator created living things with free will. Once the creator ignited a single cell living organism, has been watching very keen on how this single cell organism develops in the evolution. He is watching as to what levels these organisms would reach in the evolution. As he had given control over non-living things, he watches how diligently living thing handles a non-living thing. A non living thing can be either be good or bad depending on its usuage. For example an atom can be utilised for productive electric generation or for a dangerous nuclear bomb. Now note another important point here - If the creator had not set pre determined physics into non-living things, then on one day of the evolution a living thing may become so very powerful that it would utilise all the non living things and start even attacking the creator itself. To ensure at no point of time of evolution, the creator himself is into troubles, he ensured that all non-living things have pre determined characteristics and features. The creator would have ignited many big bangs simaltaneously and doing experiments comparing the consequences of each big bang. He would be busy registering the levels of evolution of living organisms of all the worlds created at the same time and compare the studies. Depending on the levels of the evolutions he would draw certain conclusions and may try some betterments in his next creations. Finally one thought: If the creator had no itentions of experiments or research, there would be no charm of creation.If everything was pre decided, then there would be uniformity in the characters and features of living things too. All atoms of plastic react in a same way and all atoms of gold react in the same way. It is uniform because its predetermined. But in living things not all trees or animals or humans of even the same family behave in the same way. Thats free will. If free will was not there, there would not be cold blooded criminals & soft hearted people at the same time at the same place. So its obvious that the creator is doing research and comparisons of its universes by providing free will to living things to control the predetermined characterised non-living things. Side: Free will
|
