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I think there were some guy 2000 years ago who thought people weren't being very nice to each other. He then figured that the only way to make people listen to him is to tell them that he were the son of God. The end justifies the means right?
Well, the question in the title is did the guy ever exist, which he answered. The description however is Do you think Jesus, the Jesus of the christian faith, existed?, so his answer was not following that, but the Jesus he is talking about probably would be the one mentioned in the Bible, so he did answer properly.
I hope no one takes offense to this, but he was crucified because he was a trouble maker. The Romans weren't too happy about his following and dealt with him.
"Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all."
I am not into your book of fiction, so I don't really care what it says. Nowhere in there does it say anything about a crucifiction. He was crucified by the Romans. They did it because he was causing problems. You may have described why he was destined for that, but not the why historically. Is every guy who gets tortured and killed Jesus?
...born by a virgin... is a miss translation, error that happen during translation from Hebrew to Greek, later was added the story about ghost fucking Mary.
It's a well known. Church used to kill everyone who mentioned it for sorcery/blasphemy, etc.
The mistranslation occurred when this text was translated into Greek, where the word “parthenos” meaning virgin is used. The Hebrew word for virgin is “bethulah” and cannot be found anywhere in the original Hebrew text, meaning that the original writer did not intend for it to be read as “virgin” but as “young” girl.
There are scholars that study greek, hebrew, latin, etc. They would have found it by now. Show me some hard evidence. Because the bible strictly inplies her not having sex and being of virgin birth. Let me see some evidence.
Do you really think so that organisation that has spent 1500 years by slaughtering everyone who has disagreed with it, would "reform"? Really? Just look how they are covering child molesting...
Catholics are the major Christian Church. Try to Google some details on your own. It's really a mistranslation, I've spent a great deal of time by looking around the internet and it's really an error.
Yeah, that was all just exaggeration and absurdities from religionist to make the story more fantastic and supernatural. Or else nobody will ever join them religion.
He didn't "take over" the Jewish people, they followed him by their own choice. They're were several instances where he left during preaching because they wanted to make him king.
No matter what you dig up from the internet, you can not prove Jesus is the son of God, you can not prove he walked on water, you can not prove he turned water into wine.
I believe Jesus existed, for all I know he could easily have been crucified, as that was a very popular penalty at the time.
You're right, I can bring up all my internet sources i want, your still going to believe what you want. However, they're is more historical proof for the existence Jeus and what he did than many historic events. Jesus preached on many things that were CONSIDERED to be directy against the Torah and Jewish tradition. Jesus preached forgiveness of sins not through sacrifice (minus himself), a trinity (he himself is God), and many others I can't think of off the top of my head (I will message you the rest when i remember them) , worshiped on Sunday instead of Saturday, and the still followed a dead Nazarene carpenter. Why else would they do this unless he performed the miracles prtrayed in the gospel? Eyewitness accounts are unreliable? THEY WERE JEWISH! Their entire culture revolved around keeping the Jewish faith and culture pure, yet this Nazarene carpenter changed that.They would've done everything they could have to erase this man named Jesus, unless they truly believed he was who he said he was.
"Your so called ''eyewitnesses'' are 2000 years old. You don't have any eyewitnesses, they, if they ever existed, are dead."
True, the we have the records of them though. Their are some "contradictions" amongst the gospels but 90% of the story and the entire core of the events remain the same.
"So the proof why Jesus is son of God, is that people switched from saturday to sunday?"
No, you skipped all the other things I listed.
Yes, many have converted to various religions. However this is the only MASS conversion with a change this great. Islam was first spread through military conquest, Christianity was spread through Christ and the allure of the compassion of the followers of it.
Also, we are only scratching the surface. Many people pick away at one topic at a time and straw man the Christian arguements. You mentioned how crucifixion was a common execution method. This is true, but the prophecy for it was written 400 years before it. People get tripped up on oh the stupid Christians mistranslated the word virgin, thats great, you still have 300+ more prophecies to deal with that Christ fullfilled. You claim to adknowledge the historical presence of Jeus but ignore the why of why thousands of Jews converted AT ONCE if he wasn't who he said he was.
True, the we have the records of them though. Their are some "contradictions" amongst the gospels but 90% of the story and the entire core of the events remain the same.
Records, meaning what?
All the things you listed aren't even proved. The things you say proves Jesus, aren't proved to happen themselves.
Just accept the fact that you can not prove that a man 2000 years ago is the son of God, there is simply no chance that you can prove that.
You can come up with all these 'theories' of yours, but a theory is just a theory.
Most of the Gospels were written in the 1st century (excluding John). Their is no way for me to give you tangible evidence, but it makes the most logical sense. What else got them to believe him? He hypnotized a crowd of 5,000 to make them think he fed them all from a small meal? Please provide another theory. Saying he did not perform miracles leaves me to wonder why thousands of Jews would follow him. You say he existed but not his miracles, why else would they follow him? If his miracles do exist and happened, who else would he be?
Their is no way for me to give you tangible evidence,
Thank you for that realization.
but it makes the most logical sense.
Really, does it really?????
What else got them to believe him
Do you have any proof that they actually did believe him?
Yesterday I told 5 of my friends that I am actually a man - they all believed me.
See? It is that easy to claim 5 people believe what I said, even though it is a lie.
Please provide another theory.
I'll give you two.
1. Someone wrote down a story, that a man fed 5000 people with 2 fish and 5 pieces of bread.. those 5000 people didn't exist and it was all a tale.
2. Jesus fed 5000 people with 5000 fish and 5000 pieces of bread, and someone thought it would be a nice story if there were only 2 fish and 5 pieces of bread.
Saying he did not perform miracles leaves me to wonder why thousands of Jews would follow him
Do you have proof proving they actually followed him?
f his miracles do exist and happened, who else would he be
You are missing my main point. The audience of Jesus and the authors of the Gospels were Jewish. Imagine the moral you hold dearest and being convinced to change it. The modern people do not understand the firmness the Jews had of their faith because today people dabble in many different religions and even combine without a care in the world. the historical accuracy of the Gospels is proven.
Prove to me that Jesus' audience turned. Prove to me that Jesus' even had an audience.
Just because you are born jewish doesn't mean that is the thing you hold the dearest. The christian belief could've easily been made by some rebel jewish guys.
I realize your point as well, now that i look at it. However the Jewish higher-ups so to speak used the blasphemy and other death sentences to keep these Jewish rebels from doing so.. This pushes them from having to be Jewish rebels to actually having to believe what they were doing. Which goes back to my main point. Why would they put their life on the line? The writings we have are from the 1st and mid-2nd century. The Roman church couldn't have interfered because Rome was still anit-Christian.By this time we have the epistles (by Jews) as well which show their authenticity. Paul is a switch/ convert because he once killed Christians, now he is one.
Why do teenagers use drugs, alcohol or smoke? Cigarettes is well known to be one of the biggest killers of them all, alcohol and drugs are also well known for not doing anything besides bad stuff for you and your body. Why would teenagers put their life on the line for that?
If the story you just told is true, then all christians would be dead by now, killed by the jewish people.
Wow...that comparison isn't accurate at all. Drugs don't mean immediate death by stoning, proclaiming Jesus's message did.
And once again, you can pick apart a piece all you want, another part springs you back. You haven't disproven anything, you've just proven your inability to look on the legitimacy of a religion.
"If the story you just told is true, then all christians would be dead by now, killed by the jewish people."
Not by the Jews, but by everybody else yes. Even in America Christians are getting less and less rights to express our faith. Example, the military is getting ready to take out chaplains.
At first glance you would have seemed to have disputed me, but let's take a more careful glance at the gospels. Jesus relaxed the restrictions the Sadducees had placed in the law, but these laws were man made. The one's God put in place, Jesus placed even more clarity into them. Ex. he took adultery a step further to say if you even looked upon a woman you had committed adultery in your heart. No, they followed him for the reason he said he did when he said he did in the synagogue.
Luke 4:14 Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside. 15 He was teaching in their synagogues, and everyone praised him.
16 He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, 17 and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
Wether you believe his teachings or not, he existed. The idea that he came from just a bunch of myths is stupid, even from an atheist stand point. There is Roman evidence that he lived. Jesus existed undoubtedly, but the religious question is "Does he still exist?" I say yes.
none of the "key sources" are from time of Jesus life... and the best one is a one sentence with a word similar to "Christians" Somehow the original have been lost and we have only version rewritten by Christian priest...
I don't disagree, I have always said the Bible has been translated too many times for it to be 100% accurate, something always gets lost in translation add to that it was written hundreds of years after the death of Christ. Its like a game of Chinese Whispers that has been translated at the end, I've always said its an interesting read but more like a real life Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy, it'll guide you through life but will probably give you as many questions as it will provide answers.
Jesus is just a name given to a character. the character himself was one of the many so called messiahs at the time. He may not have been called Jesus. he was (in my opinion as an atheist) not the son of god, but he certainly did exist whoever he was.
There are other books that say he did and take account of what happened to Jesus. Books like Josephus or Tacitus or the Talmud or even studying the acts of Pontius Pilate shows he did.
Tacitus was born many years after "Jesus death" so he hear it from people who knew people who lived somewhere around where was someone who says that he met him...
Also original work was lost and we have only a part of it "translated by Christian priest" original was "lost"
We still have other books. Prove them all wrong. I want to see you prove he didn't exist when scholars already agree that he did.
they have agreed without any evidence, there is no single line about him from time when he lived. Nothing, not even one. How is that possible for someone doing magic in middle of city?
The books are the sources of evidence. How many emails do you think they get? Like a shit ton. They have there evidence. You arent making a valid point.
There's really no reason for or against it, is there?
Sure there's evidence, and lack of evidence, but really, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence", right?
This is a very mundane claim. It's very likely there was a guy named Jesus or similar who wanted to change how things were done and he was killed for it.
As far as magic goes, that's silly, but the guy himself probably existed, and if he didn't, there's really no way to know and no really really good reason to not believe.
Probably, we know Socrates existed though we have no written down accounts of him, only from what Plato wrote of him. But Jesus was just that, a philosopher of ethics and morals. No son of God. But I would have thought he did exist, minus the miracles and coming back from the dead.
No, there is evidence Jesus existed, but no evidence he did any miracles. There are scriptures about him, many many scriptures and written accounts. But only word of mouth that he ever did any miracles, which I highly doubt, given there is no God.
I apologize, as it turns out the IQ difference between you and Nox0 is considerable. You're actually quite intelligent. I'm glad to welcome you and share time with you here on create debate.
No, he is saying that we have writings about him, so it is possible for him to exist. What he is saying though, is that stories of unicorns might be evidence for unicorns.
I'm a Christian and I do believe that Jesus exists. I believe that the bible is the best evidence and although there are many arguments out there, I will still believe that Jesus is always with us,anywhere,anytime.
I believe Jesus did exist as there is sufficient records. I do not believe though that he was the son of god, nor do I believe in any of his miracles or that he was the son of god. Just some person who felt strongly about peace and acceptance!
Despite the claims of the biblical accounts; walking on water, healing, turning water into bread and wine, ECT.
The question of this debate is asking: Did Jesus Exist?
I would like to point on how obvious it is that Jesus existed as a physical person.
Evidence? Let's not start with the bible.
There are many accounts of various scholars, historians, written accounts of people claiming that they have seen Jesus himself, have heard someone seeing and speaking to Jesus, and/or have "known" Jesus to have existed.
I care not to provide "links" as my "sources", these are well known facts; if you don't know how to research, then get off this debate site.
And SO, the issue that many people have with Jesus existing in general, is that he was claimed to have done already aforementioned things, which upsets people because they do not want to accept nor believe that a man can walk on water, turn water into bread and wine, heal people, ECT.
My question is, why? Why and how does it possibly bother a person that a man thousands of years ago, walked on water? What does a man walking on water do to you? Does it make you feel uncomfortable? Are you angry because that's "not possible"? Or how about Jesus apparently healing the blind? Why should a man apparently giving a born blind man, sight, bother you? If you were blind, wouldn't you want to have sight again?
My point is simple..
Socrates existed and we "know" this through mainly the workings (writings) of Plato, some from Aristotle and other philosophers.
The philosophies are of the "western philosophies" and are considered to be grounds for "ethos and morals" and an "overall insight to the world around us and how and why we interact with it", so-to-speak.
Jesus existed and we "know" this through mainly the workings (writings) of David, Moses, Paul, and about 40-X amount other people; Jesus taught morals, ethos, and generally, "overall insight to the world around us and how and why we interact with it", so-to-speak.
Obviously, there are many "books" that were written and were not part of the "bible" of today; there are many translations and variations of the same events, written differently via various languages and interpretations as years went on.
There are writings, not in the bible, that do account for the existence of Jesus, of the man himself.
And so finally to atheists and agnostics: Why bother trying to proclaim that Jesus never existed (when you know he did), and/or that the bible is false? What is your beef with it? Many of you atheists and agnostics seem to be bothered by the murder, rape, war ECT that is within the bible, and of life itself, so much that you seem to have raged war upon believers in general, due to the unfortunate aspects of life, and of the "bible".
I'm muslim. However, I also believe that Jesus exists. of course, I don't have right to say that he is not God or his son. But, in our religion he is prophet. All muslims respect him...
No, he seem to be just collection of local myths. Bible is skipping about half of stories about him, stories where he flies over cities, having family, killing his fried, killing his teacher and many more.
Scholars agree that he existed though. Also I dont think he flew over cities. The killing stuff sure but flew over families? Also where did you hear about the killing stuff?
No not at all. Non christian scholars agree as well and even non religious texts say he existed. No joke bro. The scholars that agreed were mostly non religious.
There are records of a guy named Jesus, living in Nazareth, at the time. However, there is a pretty logical explanation. His mother Mary was part of a caravan. That means she was a slut. She got pregnant off of some random guy. The kid grew up to be a cult leader/ rip off artist, claiming to be "the son of god." Mary was down with that for her reputation so she went along with it.
I said he AS A PERSON existed. But he's not the Jesus of the Bible, which portrays it differently from how it is.
The debate is whether the Jesus OF THE BIBLE existed, and the answer is no he did not. The person the Bible calls Jesus isn't who he was. It's who you Christians want him to be.
It's the same answer as the Salem Witch Trials. Were any of them witches? No, obviously not. But did the people who believed in witches get an answer from it to explain the Black Death and other diseases? Even some murders? Yes. And it's better to have some answer than no answer at all.
So, technically what you're asking is correct but the question is the Jesus SPECIFICALLY OF THE BIBLE. He was not the Jesus of the Bible. That said, people want an answer to their depression or the meaning of life or whatever it may be. I think it's better to have a bad answer that science can't explain than to have no answer at all and have no solution right?
But if you want to put it in technical terms, Jesus existed. If you want to put it in literal terms, defining Jesus as "the son of god," he did not.
"There are records of a guy named Jesus, living in Nazareth, at the time" Tell me where you found the records. Because the best record of that statement is the bible not some nonsensical book written by a man. The bible even has records on the family line of Jesus and famous people in the bible. Look at the book of Chronicles
There were several Roman historians in Jerusalem and Nazareth documenting political developments and various events. Not one had ever documented any of the events mentioned in the New Testament.
