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The religious problem
Does anyone really believe religion is a good thing anymore?
We're trying to have a civilization here and there is a bunch of crazys blowing people up for allah and speaking in tongues and trying to teach our kids to hate each other. To me that's a problem.
Religion teaches violence and hate. The god of the Bible is a sexist, racist, violent, jealous, tyrant. Religion teaches hate for homosexuals, other races, women, for the infidel, pretty much anyone that is not like the leaders of that church. Mormons teach their kids that black people can go to heaven, but only as servants for white people. Some Muslims teach their kids that killing infidels is their ticket to heaven. Catholics are raping little kids right now and being shuffled around and protected by the church so they can keep on raping little kids.
So we're all trying to have a civilization here and live together, and you religious folks are lying to people, blowing people up and raping little kids. That's the problem.
yes religion teaches all of these things BUT RELIGION IS A MAN MADE TOOL FOR CONTROL. People who follow religion have NO CLUE they are being deceived and misled, this is the devil the bible talks about, look all around you, the devil is not some evil guy, no he is the cameras watching us on every sreetcorner
if anything, im an OLD new ager, new agers today have no clue what they talk about and they think that doing drugs automatically makes you "aware" new age has been around for a long long time, its not "new" at all, but there are alot of phonies around today, and it is sad, it gives the real new agers a bad reputation, i study shamanism, druidism, and ancient knowledge, new agers today.... idk, i havent personally met one, but when i do, ill make sure to shut them down and teach them a lesson
Are you calling me a liar, because that would be a personal attack. Anyway... How would you know what I'm pretty sure of? Was there any point where I said there is no god? You should provide those quotes if you are going make accusations like that.
All of your posts reflect the mindset of an atheist. In fact, from my perspective, it seems like even if there was a God, you wouldn't follow him. I apologize for coming to a conclusion, but I feel like an agnostic wouldn't post the type of stuff that you do.
Does thinking Noah's ark is a silly story make me an atheist? No, it makes me a normal, logical person.
I am agnostic and I've never posted anything to the contrary. Its hard to dispute a claim made on a hunch so I'll just tell you no, you are very wrong.
it seems like even if there was a God, you wouldn't follow him.
I feel that way yes. If I were to become convinced of everything in the bible, I would surely side with Satan. The adversary of god has been a much more noble character throughout the stories of the bible. What race of people did satan hate and have slaughtered? When was satan acting like a childish, jealous little bitch? I don't remember reading the part where satan kills every person on the planet. Satan certainly didn't build this torture land called hell. In fact nearly every bad deed satan does in the bible is commanded by god. Was it satan that demanded the blood of a child? No, god commanded Abraham to slit his child's throat. And on, and on, and on.
If I believed in this garbage, satan has tried to help us from the beginning. Satan is also known as the morning star and the bringer of enlightenment. In the garden, it seems like god tried to make us his pets and Lucifer came to tell us we can rule ourselves. According to the book, satan is the entity that gave us intelligence and sovereignty over ourselves. God has always been against that of course and wants to keep us in our place, as his tool. If I believed in the bible I would side with satan and advocate violent revolution against god.
Unjustified assertions:So we're all trying to have a civilization here and live together, and you religious folks are lying to people, blowing people up and raping little kids. That's the problem.
Hasty generalisations:Religion teaches violence and hate.
Uninformed bigoted nonsense:The god of the Bible is a sexist, racist, violent, jealous, tyrant. Religion teaches hate for homosexuals, other races, women, for the infidel, pretty much anyone that is not like the leaders of that church. Mormons teach their kids that black people can go to heaven, but only as servants for white people.
I won't patronise you by meticulously explaining the definition of each term, I'm sure you already know.
I'd like to first address the "uninformed" accusation.
These "bigoted" statements come from a very informed person. I was born and raised in a very devoutly christian home and studied the bible from a very young age. I'd challenge any person here that says they know those pages better than I.
So I believed in and studied this horseshit for over 20 years, I think that qualifies me as informed.
Hasty generalizations: Religion teaches violence and hate.
This is actually an indisputable fact. Here, in Ezekiel 9:4-5 it says,
4 and the Lord said to him, “Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and cry over all the abominations that are done within it.”
5 To the others He said in my hearing, “Go after him through the city and kill; do not let your eye spare, nor have any pity. 6 Utterly slay old and young men, maidens and little children and women; but do not come near anyone on whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary.” So they began with the elders who were before the temple. 7 Then He said to them, “Defile the temple, and fill the courts with the slain. Go out!” And they went out and killed in the city.
Are you saying that this god of the Bible is not advocating violence? Of course he is.
This is one verse. I could post literally dozens of similar violent verses.
We are trying to have a society here where people don't handle problems with violence.
As for the unjustified assertions,
Have you ever seen the news before? Ever heard of 9/11? Are you not informed of all the atrocities going on in the religious community? (not to mention all the horrible shit religious folks have done throughout history)
I think when little kids are being raped and buildings are falling down, asking a few questions and making a few assertions is justified.
These "bigoted" statements come from a very informed person. I was born and raised in a very devoutly christian home and studied the bible from a very young age. I'd challenge any person here that says they know those pages better than I.
So I believed in and studied this horseshit for over 20 years, I think that qualifies me as informed.
Clearly you managed to fool me, but I can't dispute your credentials.
Are you saying that this god of the Bible is not advocating violence? Of course he is.
This is one verse. I could post literally dozens of similar violent verses.
We are trying to have a society here where people don't handle problems with violence.
The problem I have is your quote. You said:
Religion teaches violence...
When you meant:
Abrahamism teaches violence...
There are many religions that do not teach violence, hate, etc, and thus your statement was a hasty generalisation.
Ever heard of 9/11?
Yes, and to say that was solely a religious crime would be unjustified, given the political and foreign situation at the time.
Are you not informed of all the atrocities going on in the religious community? (not to mention all the horrible shit religious folks have done throughout history)
In small minorities and pockets, yes. But the tone of your argument gives the impression that these atrocities apply to all members of religion.
And I hate to play tu quoque here, but there has been a fair share of bastard atheists in history too.
I think when little kids are being raped and buildings are falling down, asking a few questions and making a few assertions is justified.
Sure, but just make sure to make it clear that you're addressing the minority, id est, the actual perpetrators.
There are many religions that do not teach violence, hate, etc,
I guess I should concede that point. You are clearly right about that but we're talking about 1 or 2 non-violent religions out of like 1000. I should clarify that to "Christianity teaches violence."
Ever heard of 9/11?
Yes, and to say that was solely a religious crime would be unjustified, given the political and foreign situation at the time.
Are you trying to convince us that this event would have still happened without the Islamic fundamentalist part? Are you saying that these 13 guys purposefully killed themselves to further a political ideal?
The event simply would not have occurred without the influence of Islam and the old testament.
I could clarify that to "Christianity teaches violence.
Even then there are schools of Christian pacifism. In the modern day, Christianity has really lost all meaning.
I'd rather it be Fundamentalism teaches violence.
Are you trying to convince us that this event would have still happened without the Islamic fundamentalist part? Are you saying that these 13 guys purposefully killed themselves to further a political ideal and not because they are crazy religious fucks?
Oh, I don't dispute that their religion added fuel to the fire. But the event wouldn't have happened if the US weren't so pro-Israel for 60 years prior.
Judas is with you on the being pro-Israel thing. The event also would not have happened if there weren't 13 guys that thought they'd be rewarded in the afterlife for killing 3000 people. They thought that because of their religion and this silly ass book. That's my point.
I totally agree with you there obviously the person believes everything he reads in the Daily Mail, whilst yes there are a minority of religous Zealots who have commited atrocities in the name of their religion not all religous types are the same many do lots of good works, for every IRA, Al-Quedda etc there's a Mother Theresa or Gandhi doing good works, a lot of them quietly in the background just helping people that need help they dont look for fame and recognition because that's not why they do it.
The problem is'nt Religion itself the problem is mankind, I dont know why but it's that knee jerk if your different to me or dont agree with my views then your wrong. Instead of posting up hate filled rants trying to disguise them as debates do a bit of research about the subject instead
I'd be happy to back up any part of my statement with facts and evidence if you have something to point to.
Mother Theresa was a Catholic, the same church that today protects child rapists. (happy to provide evidence of such) I think a lot of these rapists worked "quietly in the background" as well. I think a lot of bad shit happens that no one knows about and the stuff that makes the news is only a small fraction. I've heard some pretty horrible shit from catholic church survivors myself so it must be going on a lot.
Instead of posting up hate filled rants trying to disguise them as debates
And I forced you to read it huh? Sorry about my hating murderers and rapists. Maybe I'll go to hell for it and be burned for the rest of eternity. Then we'd be even right?
Do you really think all people fit under these generalizations? You are horribly mistaken. Is there really a problem with the religion itself? Or is it people that claim they belong to that religion, yet completely misrepresent everything it stands for? Just a thought.
Are atheists known for blowing up marketplaces? Do we have a big problem with agnostics raping little kids?
No. These are problems of the religious community of which you are a part.
Maybe you religious folks should start taking responsibility for the actions of your church instead of dodging responsibility and looking the other way. Maybe a few less little kids would get raped that way. Don't you think?
Maybe if a few more muslims denounced suicide bombings and walked away from any mosque that supported that, a few less people would get blown up. Don't you think?
Not all Catholic Priests rape little kids but I do agree the Catholic Church should denounce those that do instead of covering it up. Have you actually met any Muslims? The majority of the Muslim community have denounced Suicide Bombers, your sweeping statement is like saying all Irish Catholics supported the IRA!!
Yes, several, and never have I met a Muslim that supported suicide bombings. My statement was not that most muslims are terrorist or most Catholics are rapists. Not even close.
I've met a lot of Catholics too, and none of them told me they like to rape little kids. That doesn't mean that shit isn't happening. It obviously is.
Must be the way you have worded your debate and arguments, things like "Maybe if a few more muslims denounced suicide bombings and walked away from any mosque that supported that, a few less people would get blown up. Don't you think?", "We're trying to have a civilization here and there is a bunch of crazys blowing people up for allah" and " Catholics are raping little kids right now and being shuffled around and protected by the church so they can keep on raping little kids" these statements sound as if you think it's the majority of people connected to these religions doing this stuff
Are atheists known for blowing up marketplaces? Do we have a big problem with agnostics raping little kids?
Atheists don't do anything in the name of religion. That doesn't mean they don't do bad things. Look at Stalin.
No. These are problems of the religious community of which you are a part.
There are problems within any institution that contains members who are misinformed.
Maybe you religious folks should start taking responsibility for the actions of your church instead of dodging responsibility and looking the other way.
First of all, I'm not Catholic. Even if I was, I would say that those people guilty are majorly at fault and do not correctly represent Catholic virtues and morals.
Maybe a few less little kids would get raped that way. Don't you think?
Of course. But I can only speak for myself.
Maybe if a few more muslims denounced suicide bombings and walked away from any mosque that supported that, a few less people would get blown up. Don't you think?
Yes. But again, these people are not correctly representing their respective religion. Its not religion that's at fault here. Don't you think?
Atheists don't do anything in the name of religion. That doesn't mean they don't do bad things.
Atheists do bad things too, I wouldn't try to argue otherwise.
There are problems within any institution that contains members who are misinformed.
Have you ever heard of a secular organization having these problems? No you don't. I've never heard of a corporation having a pattern of raping little kids. I've never heard of a labor union that straps bombs to their chests and blows up crowds of people. Have you?
First of all, I'm not Catholic. Even if I was, I would say that those people guilty are majorly at fault and do not correctly represent Catholic virtues and morals.
Does the pope represent catholic virtues and morals? His stance is basically that there is no problem here. When accusations build up against a priest, that clergy member is moved to another area. Cover up, cover up, cover up.
Atheists do bad things too, I wouldn't try to argue otherwise.
Yes, so what exactly is the difference? Doing something in the name of a religion that does not even support the action should not be blamed on religion. Individuals need to be held accountable.
Have you ever heard of a secular organization having these problems? No you don't. I've never heard of a corporation having a pattern of raping little kids.
Hmm...does Penn State ring a bell?
I've never heard of a labor union that straps bombs to their chests and blows up crowds of people. Have you?
I wouldn't really be surprised. But you can't say that everyone that has ever belonged to a labor union has done something heinous.
Does the pope represent catholic virtues and morals? His stance is basically that there is no problem here. When accusations build up against a priest, that clergy member is moved to another area. Cover up, cover up, cover up.
Well, I'm not Catholic so the pope does not mean anything to me at all. I know there are many Catholics out there that don't agree with his actions. I would be too.
Doing something in the name of a religion that does not even support the action should not be blamed on religion.
But their religions do support these actions. Some religious leaders (the pope) do support and cover up child rapists. Some mosques do organize suicide bombings. In these places this behavior has become a pattern.
Hmm...does Penn State ring a bell?
So that's not what I asked. Obviously there is no longstanding pattern of rape at Penn State, that was one guy a few months ago. There has been sexual abuse charges filed on hundreds of catholic clergy members and this problem has been going on for decades if not centuries. It's not an isolated event in one place at one time, it's a sick pattern of abuse.
No they don't. You're confusing a minority of religious people with the actual religion.
Some religious leaders (the pope) do support and cover up child rapists.
Yet the vast majority don't.
Some mosques do organize suicide bombings.
Yet the vast majority don't.
In these places this behavior has become a pattern.
Lots of things have become patterns...that still doesn't change the fact that their respective religions don't advocate for these things.
So that's not what I asked. Obviously there is no longstanding pattern of rape at Penn State, that was one guy a few months ago. There has been sexual abuse charges filed on hundreds of catholic clergy members and this problem has been going on for decades if not centuries. It's not an isolated event in one place at one time, it's a sick pattern of abuse.
Yes, there is a pattern. There were at least 10 individual cases of child rape. I'd say this is a pattern.
The three religions based upon the old testament are the main problem. (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) The god of the bible slaughters those that displease him, mainly those that don't worship him and follow his religious rules. With this as their ultimate role model many religious folks grow up to be homicidal maniacs. It's sort of a problem these days if you hadn't noticed.
As far as the penn state thing. One rapist in one location does not compare in anyway to what the catholic church is doing. And how did that turn out Troy? As soon as the institution found about such things the responsible party was fired and brought up on charges. The school administration did exactly what they were suppose to do. They didn't try to cover it up and protect this piece of shit did they?
The three religions based upon the old testament are the main problem. (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) The god of the bible slaughters those that displease him, mainly those that don't worship him and follow his religious rules. With this as their ultimate role model many religious folks grow up to be homicidal maniacs. It's sort of a problem these days if you hadn't noticed.
Where does God encourage us to be homicidal maniacs?
As far as the penn state thing. One rapist in one location does not compare in anyway to what the catholic church is doing. And how did that turn out Troy? As soon as the institution found about such things the responsible party was fired and brought up on charges. The school administration did exactly what they were suppose to do. They didn't try to cover it up and protect this piece of shit did they?
Joe Paterno, Sandusky's superior, had knowledge of the action and did nothing about it. So no, it was covered up for a while. I'm trying to say this was as grave as the priests' crimes, but I gave you an example of a secular institution to show that it is not just religious ones that are involved with such crimes.
Where does God encourage us to be homicidal maniacs?
Ezekiel 9:6 "Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women . . . "
Isaiah 13:16 "Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished."
Deuteronomy 13:15 "Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly . . . "
Leviticus 20:9 "For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death . . . "
Exodus 32:27 ". . . Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour."
Deut 21:10-12 "When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; "
Exodus 31:15 " . . . whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."
Deut 21:21 "And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die . . . "
So no, it was covered up for a while.
So, you can ignore everything I said about the school administration doing that right thing and firing the guy instead of protecting him like the catholic church does. I'm just not going to continue this until you address that.
These are all specific orders from God. These people were to be punished for disobeying God, God is simply executing his just nature.
So, you can ignore everything I said about the school administration doing that right thing and firing the guy instead of protecting him like the catholic church does. I'm just not going to continue this until you address that.
No, I agree the Catholic church should not cover it up. I'm just pointing out another example of a secular institution involved in a similar crime.
These are all specific orders from God. These people were to be punished for disobeying God, God is simply executing his just nature.
Just? Are you serious? I'm glad our own justice system isn't so evil.
Samuel 15:3 -Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
Here we have god commanding the genocide of the Amalek people. So, tell me Troy. How did the infants that god had slaughtered disobey god?
Since you have all the answers please enlighten us.
I'm the one that's been saying all along that no one knows. You've been telling me you know. You've been telling us you know exactly what god's motives were for all these actions. Now you don't have any answers?
These are all specific orders from God. These people were to be punished for disobeying God, God is simply executing his just nature.
Beyond that, you've been telling us you know god is real, you know all the stories of the bible are true etc etc. So now that I've made these things seem stupid you don't know anything anymore? That seems odd.
That's one instance in which I gave a fairly intuitive explanation to God's action. But you're right, I could be completely wrong. I'm sorry if I made it seem like I knew, it just was my interpretation and seemed reasonable.
its not organized religion itself thats the problem... all religions teach the same basic message: that we are divine beings. The problem is people who twist the true message, so its not religions fault, its mans fault, and our lust of power
You shouldn't blame a whole religion or religious group on a small bunch of INDIVIDUALS. Because a majority of the time the actually religion teaches the opposite of these people's behavior. For example the bible says you should love everyone including your enemies, but you have these people discriminating against gay people and saying that they all should burn. It isn't right to say the whole religion is corrupt and evil because some ignorant people don't take the time and effort to look at and think about what their religion is actually saying.
Yes... but thats because we all deserve it... any sin we have committed is enough to sentence us to hell... but thats why Christianity is so great! :D Jesus died on the cross so that we, who are destined for death and destruction, could be saved through the death and destruction of Christ Jesus our only Lord and Savior! Its wonderful and great news!
Really? Wow that's great. I'm going to start praising the lords name right away.
Oh but... god is going to set my girlfriend on fire though and burn her for all eternity because she does not believe. That sucks. She's a really nice person. Oh, actually most people on this planet are going to end up in the lake of fire and burned forever. That doesn't seem fair. Well the lord works in mysterious ways, right guys, that what it said in the manual.
How many times must my sins be paid for, by the way? If Jesus was beat up and killed by the Romans for my sins, why do I also have to burn forever to pay for them.
Seems like if Jesus went through so much trouble to pay for my sins I should damn well use them. It would really be a shame to waste already-paid-for sins. Don't you think?
You've heard of genuine altruism? As Propaganda says in his video, "GOSPEL," "Even your good deeds are an extension of your own selfishness." Its not just the bad things that we do it but also the good that we do imperfectly along with the good that we do not do that sentences us to hell. No one is good but we have been made in the image of God and because of that you have to be perfect to be capable of standing before God. It is in no way unfair to sentence you or I to hell. The only way for anyone to go to heaven is to accept that the payment has been made for our debts through Jesus Christ our Lord.
If I end have a debt for credit care use but am not able to pay for it, what can I do on my own? Nothing. However, my father decides that he is capable of paying this debt because he loves me but he would only be capable of paying this debt if he does manuel labor for a couple years. After he does this, he tells me that he loves me and that he would willingly give me all the money that he earned through the years, if I would willingly take the money from him. However, I do not accept it and reject him. I do not take the money just like how people reject that the debt has been paid through Christ.
So a baby that dies without accepting this is going to get burned?
You think a god that loves us is for setting little babies on fire and burning them forever because they are so full of sin.
Are you going to even address the other problem? My girlfriend is going to be set on fire. I sort of need a solution here. I can't make her believe illogical non-sense. And what about the other billions of people that are going to be set on fire for being uninformed? That's sort of a problem too.
You said god loves us. I usually don't set things that I love on fire or create a horrible place to banish them to. Christians must have a pretty sick notion of love.
Yeah also I have one more question. If Jesus died for my sins 2000 years ago, why is anything contingent on what I think or not now. They either got paid for or they didn't, right?
So, as of right now, are our sins paid for or not? I mean this event did happen 2000 years ago. People are always telling me that Christ died for my sins but now you're saying it is contingent on something. What's the deal?
Why did god create us in such a way that we need to be forgiven? He created beings that are in a constant state of sin, and then makes sinning punishable with an eternity in hellfire. Wouldn't it just have been easier to create sinless humans? It seems to me we shouldn't need to apologize for our existence; we shouldn't be in debt to god for being true to the nature he gave us; we shouldn't have to worship god to avoid frying in a place god created for things god alone perceives as sinful.
Correction, I would like to say that "holy and perfect" is probably not the best way of answering it. I was wrong; I'm sorry! Later in the Bible humans, even after the fall, were considered still in the image of God. However, we are still required to be as great as God to be in His presence.
No, it is not His responsibility but ours instead. His laws are not burdensome (1 John 5:3) yet we still rebel because of our nature (Romans 3:23;7:25). He has told us what to do and we can choose (on a human level) to do these things or not. This then goes to the "why" question. Look to Romans 9 for that.
There is some debate within the theologian community about whether there is an "age of accountability." 2 Samuel 12:21–23 is the verse that demonstrates this. However, regardless of whether there is or isn't an age of accountability... some people are made to be vessels of destruction while others have been made for vessels of mercy, all to display the divine characteristics of God. Romans 9
No one can make another person believe. Only God can open the eyes of our hearts to understand the things of the Lord. Romans 3:10-18, Romans 9 (again), Romans 10:20, 1 Corinthians 12:3, etc. If she won't believe then break up with her.
God loves everyone in a sense that everyone is His creation. He also loves everyone in a sense because He has died on the cross for everyone and it is a free gift for anyone who accepts it. However, no one wants it and because of that He has to allow people to seek Him and accept Him. These people are His elect; everyone else He hates in a spiritual sense.
Why should God not hate the very people who disobey Him and do the very thing that He hates, sin? Sounds like a pretty big scapegoat if He allowed everyone to go to heaven just because He loves them. If a judge set a murderer free because he forgave him, then he is not a very good judge. Someone has to pay his debts for him.
These people are His elect; everyone else He hates in a spiritual sense
Um, no thanks. You can keep your baby burning cult. I chose not to believe that god created an 'elect' and then a huge majority to hate on that are made to be vessels of destruction and burn in hell.
Why should God not hate the very people who disobey Him and do the very thing that He hates, sin?
My dog shits right on my rug sometimes, I don't hate my dog. And I didn't invent dogs or dog shit.
How the fuck is it logical to create something, make it able to do these things you hate, and then punish it when it inevitably does those things.
Furthermore, everything you wrote above is concocted by you, not quoted from the bible. Don't you feel silly when you are inventing all these rules to make sense out of this shit.
Really, just as a human trying to help out another human, wouldn't it make more sense to rely on logic and evidence and proof when designing your worldview. Put down the dusty old scrolls, friend. Start basing your life on something real. It feels good to be honest with yourself and just admit that we don't know. The comfort of religion is not worth living a lie.
Well, here's the most obvious problem. Jesus was a Jew. Jews have never believed in hell. That's why not one word was spoken of hell by Jesus, because Jesus did not believe in hell.
Yet somehow, 2000 years later, there is this horrible torture land that we need Christ to save us from. If this was really the purpose for Jesus Christ's life and death, you'd think he would mention hell at some point in his sermons to the people.
Yes... but thats because we all deserve it... any sin we have committed is enough to sentence us to hell... but thats why Christianity is so great! :D Jesus died on the cross so that we, who are destined for death and destruction, could be saved through the death and destruction of Christ Jesus our only Lord and Savior! Its wonderful and great news!
That being the case, that Christ never spoke of hell, why would you believe "any sin we have committed is enough to sentence us to hell" or we "could be saved through the death and destruction of Christ ".
Christ never said any of that garbage. Based on Christ's teachings, why do you think there is this bad place we need saving from?
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
BTW's this is Jesus speaking. The following is a passage from the Old Testament.
Isaiah 66:22-24
22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth
that I make
shall remain before me, says the Lord,
so shall your offspring and your name remain.
23 From new moon to new moon,
and from Sabbath to Sabbath,
all flesh shall come to worship before me,
declares the Lord.
24 “And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
Romans 3:23
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:21
21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
First off, you are purposefully misleading people because I asked you what Jesus taught about hell. Only some of your verses were from Christ and 'hell' is not mentioned. I'm talking new testament shit, so I'm going to deal with those verses only.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
This verse actually speaks directly against your assertion that those that do not believe in Jesus go to hell. It says right there "prepared for the devil and his angels", human beings not included. So it says pretty clearly that this place that he's talking about was not prepared for us.
Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
This also does not support your assertion. It's basically saying that if you treat people poorly, you will "go away into eternal punishment." It doesn't say you must believe in him to avoid "eternal punishment", it says you should be righteous. (and I'm more righteous than most :) In any case it doesn't say anything about having to believe anything or you go to hell. There is no where in the Bible that states that anyone is going to hell for not believing in Jesus. You'd think that would be the entire point of the book in the first place, to make this clear.
Jesus didn't talk about "hell". He talked about "Gehenna" which was used a total of like...12 times. Gehenna literally translates into the Valley of Hinnom, a garbage dump just outside of Jerusalem where trash was burned along with the corpses of animals and criminals. It came to be known as the ultimate punishment for a criminal to be sent there. It was a bad fucking place nearby where they burned people.
This known fact clarifies verses like Matthew 18:8 greatly. Which goes basically,
"If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire."
Which is saying that it is better to cut off your limbs if they are going to cause you to commit a crime and be sent to the Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) where they burn criminals.
Sodom and Gomorrah received gods "punishment of eternal fire" too (Jude 1:7). I don't know of any cities around the middle east that are eternally on fire though. August 2012 is part of eternity so they should still be on fire.
C'mon lolzors93, don't be like that. We're just a couple dudes talking about Christ. What's wrong with that?
You don't have to talk to me anymore but I'll have to take that as a sign that I'm totally correct about everything. I'm sure you just need some time while you are reconsidering your ridiculous faith. That's understandable.
You are just going to ignore these arguments against your god? Jesus was tortured to death by the Romans for your sin and you wont even defend him now?
Luke 9:23
Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me."
Matthew 28:18-20
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
You see lolzors93, you are obligated by god to discuss this with me. Ignoring me would be ignoring your duty to the father. Don't you respect the word of god?
"Sodom and Gomorrah received gods "punishment of eternal fire" too (Jude 1:7). I don't know of any cities around the middle east that are eternally on fire though. August 2012 is part of eternity so they should still be on fire."
Actually eternity is before past and after the future.
KJV - Gen 1:1 - In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
In this verse we have quite an interesting setup. God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) has created a trinity of trinity's (Time Space Matter) and that's just in the first 10 words of the bible. How amazing and awesome is that.
God is in the realm of eternity. We are not in it directly.
Time - past present future
Space - height length width
Matter - consists of energy in motion producing phenomena—three in one. If there were no energy there could be no motion or phenomena. If there were no motion, there would be no energy or phenomena. If there were no phenomena, it would be because there was no energy or motion.
eternity - past - present - future - eternity
Since God created Time. This "creation" is stuck in Time. Eternity is separate or encapsulates time. Eternity is where God is. I don't think you were correct in how you were describing eternity there.
Non-sense made up by you will not be accepted as evidence. If you have scripture or actual evidence that supports any of your crazy notions please provide.
woah thats going way too far,, your saying infinite punishment is justifiable for finite mistakes? ...................................................................................................................
We were created in the image of God. When we sin we have dishonored this image. God is too great for anyone who is not perfect to stand before Him, which is why if you looked upon the Father in the Old Testament, you would die. If you have sinned, you are sentenced to be in the only place away from God spiritually, which is hell, because you cannot be in the presence of God. Hell is eternal.
Surely then apes were created in a slightly less accurate image of God, monkeys a little bit less and so on back.
When we sin we have dishonored this image.
Surely we are only carrying out his word, no matter what we do, for example, in a passage that you linked to me before, there was a prophecy of the coming of atheists that would provide tests for the faithful, surely God needed atheists in order for that prophecy to be fulfilled, therefore they are only doing God's work and can not (if God is fair and loving) be sentenced to eternal punishment.
God is too great for anyone who is not perfect to stand before Him
If God is a perfect creator, how can he create an imperfect thing?
which is why if you looked upon the Father in the Old Testament, you would die
Convenient.
If you have sinned, you are sentenced to be in the only place away from God spiritually, which is hell, because you cannot be in the presence of God.
So there's a place that the all powerful can not be?
Hell is eternal
This is another mistranslated text piece from the bible, like the virgin thing, the Greek word Aion is translated into English as forever, but an Aion is an age, that is a discrete packet of time, as in, it has an end. Eternal punishment flies in the face of the teaching that god is benevolent.
Its purely contextual. Genesis 1:26 describes man as superior to all other creatures, making him similar to God in that sense. Physical attributes are not mentioned.
Probably, but it is not the point, it seems interesting to me that god would create one species that seems so much like us and so on back and we'd be the only once deserving of grace and judgement.
Does anyone really believe religion is a good thing anymore?
I believe religion is a good thing still. At least, aspects of it are. You are correct to speak of it's bad sides, but what's generally forgotten are it's good sides.
After all, if it were truly nothing but a hindrance to our evolution, we would have done away with it by now. But it's not entirely a hindrance. Thus, it still exists.
And while I sympathize with the frustration one can have with organized religion when it's showing it's bad side, I believe completely doing away with it all at once, this very second, would be catastrophic.
Once nature would have it so that religion becomes truly more a hindrance to our civilization then it does a boon, that is when we will notice it coming to a complete decline... or bringing us to a completely collapse.
Though, I do not believe societies have every truly been toppled by religion. Not by the religion that exists around these days. So there is no evidence that religion would destroy our civilization, though the possibility of it happening for the first time in human history isn't something anyone would particularly want to experience.
More people have been murdered, more wars have been started, and more hate has occurred due to none other than religion. Steven Hawking once said that a God was not needed to explain the existence of the universe anymore. We created Gods as a way to understand things, now we have become more civilized to the point where enough research has been done to conclude the existence of life without an all powerful being.
The idea of a God should not be hated, but accepted as a part of the mental stability we needed to advance as humans. We don't need that anymore.
Religion is something people believe in with everything they are, so insults to their religion is a complete insult to them: you might as well insult their parents, their taste in clothes, their weight, their intelligence, their appearance, their morals... all at once. It doesn't matter if you're right- they're still pretty pissed off.
I fully agree with what's said above, but unfortunately we can't stamp religion out. If I could I would, but I can't, and so I'll just have to settle for monitoring this world power as closely as I can.
Religion can be a bad thing or it can be a good thing. It depends on the religion. I got tired of Christianity, so I am going for Messianic Judaism. Shalom Elohim. ;)
