CreateDebate is a social debate community built around ideas, discussion and democracy.
If this is your first time checking out a debate, here are some quick tips to help get you started:
Arguments with the highest score are displayed first.
Argument replies (both in favor and in opposition) are displayed below the original argument.
To follow along, you may find it helpful to show and hide the replies displayed below each argument.
To vote for an argument, use these icons:
You have the power to cast exactly one vote (either up or down) for each argument.
Once you vote, the icon will become grayed out and the argument's score will change.
Yes, you can change your vote.
Debate scores, side scores and tag scores are automatically calculated by an algorithm that primarily takes argument scores into account.
All scores are updated in real-time.
To learn more about the CreateDebate scoring system, check out the FAQ.
When you are ready to voice your opinion, use the Add Argument button to create an argument.
If you would like to address an existing argument, use the Support and Dispute link within that argument to create a new reply.
You can share this debate in three different ways:
#1
#2
#3
Paste this URL into an email or IM:
Click here to send this debate via your default email application.
Click here to login and CreateDebate will send an email for you.
Atheist Churches
Apparently some atheist churches have started to spring up. One of them is The Sunday Assembly. Their public charter states, "The Sunday Assembly is a godless congregation that celebrate life. Our motto: live better, help often, wonder more. Our mission: to help everyone find and fulfill their full potential. Our vision: a godless congregation in every town, city and village that wants one."
Do you think having atheist churches is a good idea or bad idea?
Well it sounds like a good idea for people of like mind to form associations and gather together for fellowship. However, according to the most prevalent (however illogical) interpretations of the words "church" and "atheist", forming an atheist church is a logical impossibility. Churches are by definition religious organizations and so atheists may congregate, but they cannot belong to a religious organization (a church) while maintaining their "secular" or "not religious" stance.
The website he put as a link mentions assembly, not church, so your point might be well understood by this group of people. It is just easier to call it what it really is.
I asked the loving almighty, and his answer was surprising!
God: Behold, I sayeth unto the faithful, I have appointed those who have obeyed my commandment to have no gods before me to administer mine holy churches on earth.
In the fullness of time there will appear among the waters a multitude of atheist churches. They will be one in spirit, and purify themselves before me, as I help them in secret. I have written my law on their innermost parts and I will not fail in quickly lifting the veil from their eyes. After this time, all will know that I do not write on the dead, and the idolators will weep and gnash their teeth.
This seems like a bad idea to me. While I wholeheartedly support their goal to "live better, help often, wonder more" I don't see why they feel the need to exclude theists. Why does it have to be a theist vs. atheist thing. Why not just make it about anyone who want to promote those goals regardless of whether or not they believe in god. It just further promotes the us vs. them mentality instead of a lets all work together to make the world a better place mentality. To me it seems no different than starting a church for people who don't believe in santa clause.
The problem is they call themselves "a godless congregation". Even though they may not explicitly tell theists "you're wrong," by calling it a godless congregation it sounds exclusionary and unwelcoming to theists. Try to look at it the other way around. If there was a similar organization that called themselves a god worshiping congregation do you think many atheists would feel welcomed? I know I wouldn't. I just don't see why they need to call themselves a "godless congregation." If their goal truly is just to "live better, help often, wonder more" then whether you believe in god or not should be irrelevant.
I don't feel that means they will bad mouth God. If we take it at its truest meaning, it is a congregation where God is not talked about. I would have to see what the do in this congregation because I can't even imagine it at all.
If there was a similar organization that called themselves a god worshiping congregation do you think many atheists would feel welcomed?
I don't really think that is the problem, and I don't think it would be so bad for Atheists to go to that. The biggest problem with the Christian congregations is that they add the part that not worshiping God makes you a bad person. If it was a God congregation where people discuss what they are thankful for and attribute it to God, but don't look down on those who don't attribute it to God, I think they could get some Atheists to show up.
If it was a God congregation where people discuss what they are thankful for and attribute it to God, but don't look down on those who don't attribute it to God, I think they could get some Atheists to show up.
They might get a few to show up, but I think they would be few and far between. I know I wouldn't go.
Their charter seems very contradictory. It says, "Our mission: to help everyone find and fulfill their full potential. Our vision: a godless congregation in every town, city and village that wants one."
The first sentence says "everyone" but the second sentence says "a godless congregation." A godless congregation is not "everyone."
I just think if someone is going to start a new church with the motto "live better, help often, wonder more" whose goal is to "help everyone find and fulfill their full potential", then saying things that make people feel excluded is unwise and makes me question their motives. If I'm questioning their motives and I'm an atheist, I can't imagine how distrustful a theist would be of them.
I would have to see what the do in this congregation because I can't even imagine it at all.
I agree. The whole concept seems very strange to me and I would have to go to one to see what really goes on there.
The first sentence says "everyone" but the second sentence says "a godless congregation." A godless congregation is not "everyone."
It really only sounds like it is excluding God, and He ain't a person. ;)
I just think if someone is going to start a new church with the motto "live better, help often, wonder more" whose goal is to "help everyone find and fulfill their full potential", then saying things that make people feel excluded is unwise and makes me question their motives. If I'm questioning their motives and I'm an atheist, I can't imagine how distrustful a theist would be of them.
What are they supposed to say? "A congregation that isn't centered around God"?
If there was a similar organization that called themselves a god worshiping congregation do you think many atheists would feel welcomed?
God worshipping congregation - that's a church. And atheists don't feel welcome there - that's why they are starting their own churches. Not everyone has to welcome everyone. Next, people are going to complain that football teams exclude people who like soccer. Anyway, they call themselves a godless congregation because they are attempting to attract a group that would automatically be suspicious of a "church". Either way, it's a group of like-minded people getting together to share their similar beliefs.
The reason I have a problem with them being exclusionary is because it contradicts their mission statement which states "Our mission: to help everyone find and fulfill their full potential." They remind me of the Christian-run soup kitchens that have been telling atheists that they can't volunteer there. The Sunday Assembly may not outright refuse to allow theists, but they certainly aren't going to make them feel welcome by calling it a "godless congregation".
If their goal truly is to "help everyone find and fulfill their full potential" and encourage people to "live better, help often, and wonder more" then excluding people just because they believe in a god is a bad move. Like I said, it creates an us vs. them mentality instead of a lets all work together to make the world a better place mentality.
If they want to exclude theists they can, but they need to change their mission statement and not pretend like they are really about helping the community as a whole.
Ok, that makes sense. Since I haven't actually been to one, I can't say how exclusionary the vibe is. I mean, if it's just the general idea of "atheist congregation", but they are not actually DOING anything that excludes theists, then I would be inclined to believe it's other people being overly sensitive, but if they are actively making people feel unwelcome - well, then they are giving atheists a bad rap, which is wrong. But they could be being completely accepting, while making it clear that this is not the place to go and try to convert people.
Do you seriously mean to suggest that it is wrong to form exclusive social groups? Every single religious organization ever is an exclusive group organized explicitly around addressing and advocating and celebrating theism. Every civil rights group organizes around an issue. Social groups frequently are exclusive, often membership based. Humans are generally predisposed to seek out in-groups of like-minded people.
Forming and participating in such groups does not mean that you have to exclude those who do not share your identity/views in every part of your life and never work with them; it means that you are setting aside a part of your life for something that interests you and that you care about. Someone can join an atheist "church" and still work with theists on issues outside of their congregation... just like theists can go to their church and still work with atheists outside of their congregation.
Do you seriously mean to suggest that it is wrong to form exclusive social groups?
That's not what I'm saying, but after rereading what I wrote again I see how it could easily come across that way. My comments were directed at The Sunday Assembly specifically and not atheists churches in general. I guess I should have been more clear about that. I have no problem with people forming exclusive groups. However, in this particular case it goes against their mission statement which states "Our mission: to help everyone find and fulfill their full potential." From what I've read about them they don't even talk about atheism. In fact, "a few weeks ago, a group of the original NYC organizers split away, claiming to be discontented with the Sunday Assembly’s lack of sufficiently explicit atheist advocacy, and formed a competing group they’re calling Godless Revival." [1]. So now we're already seeing different denominations forming. The whole thing just reeks of religion.
The Sunday Assembly is more like a humanist group that just talks about being a good person and doing charitable work, which is great, but if their goal truly is to "help everyone find and fulfill their full potential" and encourage people to "live better, help often, and wonder more" then excluding people just because they believe in a god seems to go against their mission statement. If they want to exclude theists they can, but they need to change their mission statement and not pretend like they are really about helping the community as a whole. That's my main beef with them.
I'm also a little leery about what their true motives are. They are trying to get people to donate $800,000 to expand their operations. That may be a legit reason, but the whole thing just reeks of churches bilking their followers out of their hard earned money and pocketing a big chunk of it. I hope my suspicions are wrong and that they truly are about making the world a better place, but at the moment I remain a little skeptical.
If for no other reason, I don't like the idea because it lends to support to the idea that atheism is a religion. Why not call it a community group? I also think it would be beneficial if theists were made to feel welcome to attend and express themselves. I would imagine that finding out most atheists are bright, friendly and completely normal people would be a real eye opener for many of them.
In reading their website, it appears that they do not refer to themselves as a church although there are some posts that make those references.
Their tenants also include "#4 Is radically inclusive. Everyone is welcome, regardless of their beliefs – this is a place of love that is open and accepting." This is right after celebration of life, no deity, no doctrine.
