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Moses' actual journey took forty years. Him and his followers covered about twelve miles per year... which is pretty sad.
I think it's funny that water is essential to life, yet the Bible seems kind of anti-water... parting the Red Sea, walking on water, water into wine, etc,. Nowadays, everything is a miracle in the eyes of a Christian... they caught the garbage man in time to throw out their trash, oh thank Jesus! They dropped their soda and it didn't spill... praise the Lord! They passed their exam... Jesus was with me today! However, when something bad happens... it just wasn't God's "will" for it to work out. Give me a break!
I don't think any of your examples makes the bible anti-water. They just show how God uses water. The bible doesn't really give a negative feeling towards water. More so a positive feeling.
Ezekiel 43:2 His voice was like the roar of rushing waters
Hebrews 10:22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.
These are just some verses but they show the importance of water. Like god's instrument or something. All of your examples just shows how good God is at using water.
Nowadays, everything is a miracle in the eyes of a Christian
Your over generalizing Christians. Your argument treats them as if all Christians follow the same thing.
However, when something bad happens... it just wasn't God's "will" for it to work out. Give me a break!
I can agree with you there because that shit is annoying. However you are still over generalizing them. Not all Christians view the world like that.
I don't think any of your examples makes the bible anti-water. They just show how God uses water. The bible doesn't really give a negative feeling towards water. More so a positive feeling.
Well, I was obviously joking...
Ezekiel 43:2 His voice was like the roar of rushing waters
Yeah, because the word roar is often used in a positive sense, right? Lol clearly water was just used as a simile in that verse, neither positively or negatively.
Hebrews 10:22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.
I guess you can say that it was being used in a positive tone there. I assume that it is referring to baptism... which typically happens in a church or place of worship. Hints the word "pure". They're being cleansed with holy water. Now the question is, was the Red Sea, the water that Jesus turned into wine and the water that he walked on "pure" before they interacted with it?
These are just some verses but they show the importance of water. Like god's instrument or something. All of your examples just shows how good God is at using water.
Yeah, I understand that. It was a joke to begin with. If they didn't like water, they obviously wouldn't baptize in it.
Your over generalizing Christians. Your argument treats them as if all Christians follow the same thing.
To an extent, all Christians do follow the same thing. There are different sects, but at the core, they all believe in Jesus and his teachings. They of course have branches like Catholicism and Mormonism, but their religions would not exist without the Bible. Christians will vary on what they find miraculous, but considering that my argument was somewhat of a joke to begin with, I included some of the things that I found funny from some of the Christians that I have come across. Can you not agree that many Christians find dumb little things to have been accomplished due to divine intervention? Especially if they prayed for it (ex: pass an exam) and it actually happened? Rather than assuming it was a coincidence, they often come to the conclusion that God answered their prayers.
I can agree with you there because that shit is annoying. However you are still over generalizing them. Not all Christians view the world like that.
Would you say that the majority of Christians are like that? That's what I typically see from them, I imagine that it is often the case.
Yeah, because the word roar is often used in a positive sense, right?
My argument is that the bible just uses water. Its a description of his voice which is supposed to be a powerful thing. A positively powerful thing.
They're being cleansed with holy water. Now the question is, was the Red Sea, the water that Jesus turned into wine and the water that he walked on "pure" before they interacted with it?
What dows it matter if its pure? Its water. God used it. For one he split the sea. In what way does that make the bible anti-water. Then Jesus walking on water. In what way does this make the bible anti-water? Then turning water into wine? In what way does this make the bible anti-water? They were all used for positive things. So please elaborate on that.
To an extent, all Christians do follow the same thing. There are different sects, but at the core, they all believe in Jesus and his teachings. They of course have branches like Catholicism and Mormonism, but their religions would not exist without the Bible. Christians will vary on what they find miraculous, but considering that my argument was somewhat of a joke to begin with, I included some of the things that I found funny from some of the Christians that I have come across. Can you not agree that many Christians find dumb little things to have been accomplished due to divine intervention? Especially if they prayed for it (ex: pass an exam) and it actually happened? Rather than assuming it was a coincidence, they often come to the conclusion that God answered their prayers.
Your still assuming all Christians follow an absolute. Many Christians just believe in God and thats it. They will go to clubs, drink, fuck bitches, and then call themselves Christians. So how can you logically assume they all follow Jesus' teachings? In fact many Christian don't put all benevolent occurrences in the favor of God but themselves. If you won the lottery you won. If you scored well on a test that was all you. If they prayed and they believe that it worked then good for them. I still think you are forgetting the deviations.
Would you say that the majority of Christians are like that? That's what I typically see from them, I imagine that it is often the case.
Well I can't say you are wrong because where you live many Christians act they way you describe them as and the Christians that live where I live act different so I can't say I am more right than you or that you are incorrect. Its a little subjective now. Its all perspective. I think your 100% correct now that I think about it because this is probably what you perceive and what I perceive is different. This probably should be a "support" argument.
My argument is that the bible just uses water. Its a description of his voice which is supposed to be a powerful thing. A positively powerful thing.
Of course the Bible uses water! You included that verse as an attempt to show me positive portrayals of water and you're still defending that... " A positively powerful thing". That's a bit contradictory to your first sentence, but matches up just fine with your previous argument. Whether that verse was used in a positive tone or not is up for interpretation, but what I saw was just a basic simile to describe his voice. They could have easily used "thunder" in place of water... it wouldn't have portrayed him any more negatively.
What dows it matter if its pure? Its water. God used it. For one he split the sea. In what way does that make the bible anti-water. Then Jesus walking on water. In what way does this make the bible anti-water? Then turning water into wine? In what way does this make the bible anti-water? They were all used for positive things. So please elaborate on that.
Uhhh... did I not say that my whole anti-water thing was a joke? I'm pretty sure I did.
The purity of the water doesn't matter to you and it doesn't matter to me, but it matters to Christians. Holy Water is a term for a reason.
Your still assuming all Christians follow an absolute. Many Christians just believe in God and thats it.
You're way off on that one. Just believing in God is called a Theist. All Christians do fall under that term, but then they branch out into specific religions. Christianity is a religion and it's name derives from Jesus Christ. You cannot call yourself a Christian if you just believe in a God.
They will go to clubs, drink, fuck bitches, and then call themselves Christians.
I can call myself a Christian too... that doesn't mean I am one.
So how can you logically assume they all follow Jesus' teachings?
Hopefully, my comment above gives you an idea... but anyone who has any idea of how to be a Christian, would know that following Jesus' teachings is the key to being Christian.
The purity of the water doesn't matter to you and it doesn't matter to me, but it matters to Christians. Holy Water is a term for a reason.
I get it.
You cannot call yourself a Christian if you just believe in a God.
Says who? A definition? A definition created by another man? Why can't someone be what they want to be? I assumed you knew that my example implied they also believed in Jesus as well but following his teachings are just what you accept as the meaning of being a Christian.
I can call myself a Christian too... that doesn't mean I am one.
It does say all you have to do is believe Christ died for your sins and rose again. That's it. I don't care what the majority of people agree on. Its not absolute. Its just relative. They can call themselves a Christian.
Hopefully, my comment above gives you an idea... but anyone who has any idea of how to be a Christian, would know that following Jesus' teachings is the key to being Christian.
Not really. Just you setting up an objective when its clearly a relative thing. If all I have to do is believe he died for my sins and rose again I can call myself whatever I want. Who are you to tell me I am wrong? Get it? Its the same thing as morality. Its all subjective. There is no absolute. You just believe what the majority of people agree on. Does mean its an absolute.
Religion tends to be a little different than careers and such. In order to be a part of a religion, you need to actually believe in what it preaches.
I assumed you knew that my example implied they also believed in Jesus as well but following his teachings are just what you accept as the meaning of being a Christian.
Muslims and Jews believe in Jesus but don't follow his teachings. Christians do.
It does say all you have to do is believe Christ died for your sins and rose again.
And that makes someone a Christian? Not exactly. Man created Christianity, Jesus spread the message. Jesus wasn't a Christian and he didn't say "be a Christian... what? Yeah, a Christian... get it? It's my name plus '-ian' ". His teachings were put into New Testament and labeled as the foundation of Christianity. If it was as simple as "just believe", then all of that other stuff wouldn't matter and Christianity would be considered the most simple religion around.
That's it. I don't care what the majority of people agree on.
Uhhh, that's really the main reason we're even arguing isn't it? You said that I was "over-generalizing" Christians.
If all I have to do is believe he died for my sins and rose again I can call myself whatever I want.
Then you're arguing with me for no reason. This debate is about Christians.
Who are you to tell me I am wrong?
Someone who knows A LOT about religion. You can call yourself a fucking dinosaur for all I care... but if you don't fit the characteristics, then you aren't one!
Which I already stated the requirements for acess to heaven.
Religion tends to be a little different than careers and such. In order to be a part of a religion, you need to actually believe in what it preaches.
Mmmm no I dont think so. I already addressed this.
Muslims and Jews believe in Jesus but don't follow his teachings. Christians do.
I already covered this. What defines a Christians beliefs is up to the individual. Not you.
And that makes someone a Christian? Not exactly. Man created Christianity, Jesus spread the message. Jesus wasn't a Christian and he didn't say "be a Christian... what? Yeah, a Christian... get it? It's my name plus '-ian' ". His teachings were put into New Testament and labeled as the foundation of Christianity. If it was as simple as "just believe", then all of that other stuff wouldn't matter and Christianity would be considered the most simple religion around.
Relatively it can. Again, you aren't understanding me.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
That's it. If my individual beliefs is that Christianity is this then who are you to say I can't do this?
Uhhh, that's really the main reason we're even arguing isn't it? You said that I was "over-generalizing" Christians.
I don't think you are understanding me. I don't care what a majority says. You are generalizing Christians into one sect. Which you did.
Then you're arguing with me for no reason. This debate is about Christians.
More so about the occurence of miracles. However I am beginning to suspect you still lack am understand of what I am saying. Clearly I used my sentence as an example.
Someone who knows A LOT about religion. You can call yourself a fucking dinosaur for all I care... but if you don't fit the characteristics, then you aren't one!
Why? Who sets the characteristics? People? Please. One man can set a thousand characteristics. Don't get all high and fucking mighty like you know everything. If you know so much you should understand that your definition of a Christian is a simple creation. I can create another and so can someone else.
Which I already stated the requirements for acess to heaven.
All you said is "just believe". That isn't the case with Christianity.
James 2:14-17
"What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."
Mmmm no I dont think so. I already addressed this.
Yeah, I know you addressed it... you were wrong, which I already addressed.
I already covered this. What defines a Christians beliefs is up to the individual. Not you.
They base their beliefs off of the Bible, otherwise they aren't true Christians.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
It goes deeper than that.
I don't think you are understanding me. I don't care what a majority says. You are generalizing Christians into one sect. Which you did.
Christianity is one thing that has multiple branches. It is not Christianity if their beliefs are not Christian at the core.
More so about the occurence of miracles. However I am beginning to suspect you still lack am understand of what I am saying. Clearly I used my sentence as an example.
Clearly you are all over the place and having a difficult time not contradicting yourself. Just saying that I don't "understand" is not helping. What I'm seeing is that you don't understand.
Why? Who sets the characteristics? People? Please.
You're almost looking at all of this in an abstract sense. Come back down to reality and you might get a better idea.
One man can set a thousand characteristics. Don't get all high and fucking mighty like you know everything.
Yeah, but the characteristics are obvious. If I told you that snow is white, would you argue with me? Christianity goes so much deeper than just believing... and did I say that I know everything? No. I said that I know a lot and from that I can tell that you know little on the topic. It's the same as if you were to argue with me that a motorcycle is a car. I have the knowledge that a motorcycle is in fact not a car, just like I have the knowledge that your idea of Christianity, and probably religion in general, is wrong.
Well you got me here. Dont really feel like continuing this shit. You're a fucking smart ass and I like it. I mean that in a good way. I'll give you this one. Hard to debate shit you barely know about.
LOL! Right on man. I studied World Religion in college and I'd say that was probably my favorite course, so I really do have a pretty good grasp on it. I knew you probably didn't know much about it when you told me that you Googled the Book of Srom in another debate. Srom is one of the members on this site lol.
Hahaha played me like a joke with that one. A user huh? Well you got your shit together. Just wait until I catch ya in another debate. Maybe something I actually know about.
Yeah... and it's dumb because God came across as an asshole in Old Testament. Back then he played both sides... but lets be realistic here! Why would he care whether you spill your drink or not... or catch the garbage man in time? That's little stuff. He's busy with minor shit, while the world is declining into chaos and corruption. Is Satan really that powerful that God can't prevent bad things from happening? Last time I checked God created Satan and according to the Bible, he knows exactly when he'll defeat Satan... so why is he waiting? He knows he can defeat Satan, but apparently just doesn't feel like doing it right now. He'd much rather help a kid pass a test.
Yeah I got that. The bit where you talked about how if tiny things happen, it's all praise Jesus, but a tsunami or earthquake kill tens of thousands, then their only answer is " well, God works in mysterious ways, it's God's will..."
its not fair to say it never happened or it was by heavenly happening. because well in Egypt, i think, its about every ten years or something like that, that the red sea actually splits (due to storms). to say its by god would be an over statement cuz well all you would have to do is to time it up appropriately and boom. you got a holy man.
the Romans had a thing where they deliberately want the over all public to be that of lesser intelligence. so whose to say that the Egyptians would not do the same to the slaves. and from that lack of knowledge you have the filler of god.
but if you were to just call this a miracle then they happen all the time. you just dont notice them cuz we are so used to it. hurricanes hitting florida: they get back up and live on. floods earthquakes all of that jazz and we are still hear. only thing is we dont blame the people cuz we think they are bad and by their own hand allowed this. but cuz we understand the earth more.
as understanding goes on god becomes less real and in turn the "miracles" do as well.
Sorry this could be a ridiculous stab in the dark ... Maybe they never happened , that feels better it's all out in the open now although on the miracle side I would love to see that water into wine trick.... Now that's neat . Btw love the pic .
Ha Ha yes a talking bush now there's something of all the things gifted with speech a bloody bush, and I loved the bee gees . I love the overly dramatic voices that movie is pure gold .
Yeah... like the narrator when he describes them worshiping the golden calf... "and they were wicked and perverse" blah, blah, blah... LOL! I'd rather worship that golden calf.... at least it didn't murder millions of innocent people.
Okay guys, I'm tired of you talking shit about Moses! If you want an accurate portrayal of the flaming bush talking, Red Sea parting, commandment carrying Moses, then watch the Prince of Egypt. Disney, with their reputation for bringing fairy tales to the big screen, did just that with the story of Moses... he even sings in it!
They may happen and you just don't see them happening...
When they do happen, most of the time people do not have a camcorder.
I think all of it's staged. Like that priest who appeared and saved that guy who was in a car accident and then mysteriously disappeared. It's hardcore Christians trying to convince people...
Well, I assumed some Christian nutcase would say miracles happen all the time like... some kid with cancer survives or some bullshit. That's why I said on the scale of parting the Red Sea. No one had a camcorder back then but we still heard about that "miracle".
They do happen it's just that when people hear about it they automatically doubt it's from God. Even when things happen that you normally don't see somebody comes up with an excuse to why that miracle exactly happens.
