Also with the legalization of marijuana as medicine leads to significantly less death by overdosage on painkillers, I'm sure god if he were to exist would be happy about that rather than mad or sad, that is making the best for what he supposedly offered us and making it a good thing.

That is actually a fair point, and I cannot contest... So I shall concede in my counterpoint to yours and change my argument instead.

Rather that the difference between deities and morality, justice, truth, all do exist and are evident. Though I imagine that we might have fundamentally different ideas of what these things are supposed to be and that is likely where our disagreement will stem from.

Also "And it is as equally true of these things that they do not exist as it is of truth." Do you not see the irony in this statement? How can you say X is true and in the same sentence proclaim that truth does not exist? I find that to be rather contradictory.

While I can see that women have more power in this situation, this would make it too easy for any man to bail on a knocked up a chick rather easily.

No... because I don't want to get to shot... .

You know honestly I wouldn't be too shocked to learn that extraterrestrial life had their own religions. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a phenomenon amongst intelligent life. For all we know it could be perfectly natural for intelligent life to develop religions and not because their is a creator but because of other reasons.

I mean the concept of god isn't really all that complex, all we are talking about here is a cosmic agent. The combination of two concepts: the cosmos, and beings. We look at everything around us, the sky, our world, wondering how far it goes and we sum up all of our reality that we can possibly figure there to be and call it the cosmos.

I think you're comparison is of apples and oranges, you see you are comparing ideals: "justice, morality, ..., humanism..." to something that is supposed to be more than an ideal. The only fair comparison here is truth, and that by definition is existent.

If an omniscient being knows every decision it is to make an eternity before, and if knowledge is "true (as in it is correct), logical belief" then that would mean it is incapable of making any other decision otherwise it wouldn't know it's own decisions. However I'd argue that "responsibility" combined with "omniscience" can never coexist with free will so

What about me? Don't I deserve some praise, after all I am only the best guy on here ;P you will rue the day you didn't acknowledge my superiority!!!

In all seriousness, if dana really bothers you that much, perhaps you are better off going, I do however think it seems unreasonable to allow someone to drive you away from here, when you can simply ignore them

If a thing had sentience, but no longer has sentience, can we still abort it?

I see no reason to object.

You said it can be pinned down, but requiring a wide range is the opposite of pinned down.

Wide? not knowing within a couple of seconds when sentience develops is considered to wide? that's funny... It comes down to a matter of weeks, and days.

Whatever moment you pin sentience to, there will be a pro-lifer saying "why is it human now, but not 2 seconds ago?" And the pro-choice movement will have to think of something.

We don't pin-point the exact second a fetus becomes sentience, medical professionals are probably significantly more cautious than that and would not perform an abortion before it could possibly develop sentience, and if they didn't I would hold the position that they should.

Earlier you said something like: "the only truth expressed in moral statements is that of individual preference". If we accept that moral statements can truly reflect preference, this means we accept that moral statements CAN be true in at least some sense. Will you agree that all intelligible moral statements are statements about what is valued?

yes

All "moral statements" are supposedly "good advice".

Personally, I think that's a really neat way of explaining morality in laymans terms.

Good is determined by what is valued. If following the advice in question reliably results in attaining/maintaining desirable conditions, then the moral statement is at least somewhat true. For example, if health is your primary value....smoking cigarettes is clearly wrong

smoking cigarettes would be wrong for improving ones health. I would concur.

I am given to incoherent rambling now and again, but with the "events that impoverish sicken and kill, as opposed to those that enrich, heal, and allow us to flourish and thrive." statement I was thinking of the logical basis of MY morality, and talking like everyone justifies their idea of morality the same way I do...oops!

I am still confused... I was hoping you could articulate your point there, in another way.

It is true that setting standards to live by and taking them seriously will produce "approvable" results more consistently than taking a laissez faire approach to habit formation.

exactly

One's values are always based on recognition of more or less "preferred conditions". A description of a value can be true, false or a messy mixture of both. Values are..... held or not held .....NOT.... true or untrue

What makes a value true or untrue? what truth does a value hold?

Morality IS honoring a value system. A moral statement is true, if it amounts to an expression of good advice (ie it helps attain/keep what's valued)

Again, if I value genetic superiority, then that would make it morally right to enslave and exterminate the genetically inferior, no? After all that is honoring a system of values is it not?

They express truths about what we value

I would agree.

My response here is the same as my response to the fruit of the poisoned tree discussion below. I refer you there; please let me know if you think this overlooked anything.

You said "People may reason from their moral premise, but so long as their reasoning is premised upon their morality it is fruit of the poisoned tree."

in which I said "I would disagree, I think it is entirely possible to come to moral premises from reason, however, it's just not purely logical because it is compromised by how we think the world should be"

Your point being (if I am not mistaken, as maybe I misunderstood your expression "fruit of the poisoned tree") that if we reason from moral premises then we suffer the consequences of warping how we perceive the reality of things, since our moral frameworks hold no barring on what our reality is. However, my point was that we do not reason FROM moral premises but rather we reason TO moral premises. We come to form our attitudes of what we approve of and disapprove of based off some form of reasoning, we can thus debate the quality of our reasoning from there, despite the fact that our attitudes of approval and disapproval (morality) may not be in any form truth, reality, or knowledge, it can still be reasonable or unreasonable. The problem is when we mistake our morality for truth, reality, and knowledge.

Call it what you like, I do not see that this changes my analysis regarding the distinction between morality specifically and philosophy generally.

All morality really is, are our attitudes of approval and disapproval, it is simply that the overwhelming majority due to insecurities over perceived threats towards their moral frameworks, tend to mistake their attitudes of approval and disapproval as transcendent, and a form of knowledge and truth.

I see that less as an acknowledgement, and more as an assumption. What utility?

It is simply our way of referring to our attitudes of approval and disapproval, of which relates to how we should treat each other, behave around each other, and arguably the back bone behind society and law in general. That is it's utility.

If you are developing a moral system from a basis of reason, then I would contend you are not creating a moral system at all but rather an amoral system of logic to which the term morality is being misapplied.

I disagree, but perhaps that comes down to whether or not moral premises are supposed to, or meant to express truth. The moral nihilist of the error theorist branch would argue that moral premises are meaning to express truth statements but utterly fail to do so, while the non-cognitivist moral nihilist would argue that the language of morality was meant to express attitudes of approval and disapproval and nothing more than that.

It seems a ineffectual and inaccurate practice, to go to the bother of creating a logical framework only to dilute it by communicating it in terms of moral right and wrong.

It is convenient for expressing a schema for what should be encouraged and discouraged.

Further, introducing our emotional preferences for how the world "should" be innately perverts the reasoning process from logic. There is no objective way that anything "should" be; there is only what is.

Well of course how things should be, what should be encouraged and discouraged is ultimately not objective, they are based off desires and intentions, goals and agendas, but they have to be discussed. A civilization in which there are laws that mean to have us co-exist with each other to the point that we thrive together in nature requires establishing a "way things should be". Objectively murder is not right or wrong, it is not true that we should murder or shouldn't murder each other, but it is true that it is counter-productive to the establishment of civilization. While one may be able to argue, that morality isn't necessary in order discuss the necessities for a civilization, what about the necessity for a civilization in and of itself? What about the things that aren't exactly covered by laws, lying, scamming, manipulating, disrespecting each other. It is convenient to have a moral language, a language for what we disapprove of, as it allows us to philosophize on what we should encourage and discourage as a species, and by extension how we can co-exist with each other.

We can apply reason and logic to discuss our emotional preferences; however, we are ultimately not discussing reality or defending reasonable or logical convictions, but rather are attempting to legitimate what are fundamentally illegitimate perceptions of reality.

not defending logical convictions? Here is where I have to disagree, while I concur that when we apply reasoning to our emotional preferences, as you call them, our attitudes of approval and disapproval, we can do so while fully acknowledging that in no way are we discussing the reality of things, but simply that, our attitudes of approval and disapproval. It doesn't have to be an attempt to legitimate any perception of reality. However they can still be logical convictions, valid lines of reasoning as to why I disapprove of this and approve of that, as much as they may be tied to my feelings, and intentions.

The moment that we bend logic to the service of our preferences, we have lost logic as a pursuit and are utilizing it only as a tool; the conclusions we reach in such a process cannot be accurately described as logical themselves, and certainly not as objective.

Yes, they can, if logic is the study of valid reasoning, and if our reasoning as to why we approve of this or disapprove of this is valid, it is definitely logical, and we had not lost the pursuit of logic. granted, these convictions are compromised by feelings and intentions, they can still be logical feelings and intentions.

I think my point stands, however, that morality is not necessary to reach those conclusions. Not only is it unnecessary, I maintain that it encumbers that end by distorting our understanding of objecitve reality in deference to our emotional preferences.

However, you can't reach those conclusions in a purely logical way, or in any way superior to that of the use of moral language. What would be the difference between me expressing what I approve of and disapprove of, through terminology of right and wrong, if I were to acknowledge that in no way does it have any barring on knowledge, reality, truth. ultimately we would be doing the same thing, except I would be doing it within a school of thought specifically meant for it. When you come to a conclusion about what should be encouraged and discouraged, it will be compromised by your feelings, intentions, and everything that comes with your sentience. Nothing objectively should be encouraged or discouraged, the only reason things are encouraged or discouraged is because there are sentient minds that perform such a function, after all it is ultimately logical that they do so.

So we are in agreement that moral statements CAN be true or false, depending on whether they accurately reflect the value system they're supposed to correspond to right?

Not at all, I do not think any moral statements express truth as they do not at all describe the world but are merely expressions of what you approve of and disapprove of.

There are truth claims implicit in any moral statement.It's assumed! that there are events that impoverish sicken and kill, as opposed to those that enrich, heal, and allow us to flourish and thrive.

Could you explain these statement?

Moral statements are supposed to reflect truths that help us improve conditions, or at least maintain a certain level of public decency.

Better conditions for what exactly? Is it true that we should maintain a certain level of public decency or is that just more approvable?

Now I understand...the people I'd like to see locked up are perfectly moral according to their own value system So let me rephrase...I don't want to live in the same community with people whose value systems and morals differ too greatly from mine.

I was making the point that are values are not at all truths, my point still stands.

A non-cognitivist would argue that there is no objective way to determine whether the nazis were morally inferior to their opposition right?

Objectivity and subjectivity are an entirely different topic that may be strongly intertwined but again still different. If by objective you mean "factual" or "void of bias" I would probably say yes myself. Rather that our expressions of approval and disapproval are not truth, nor knowledge. Now, we can still reason, and even convince each other, however we have to have a certain amount of common ground in order to do so. fortunately as a species we all have some common ground for the most part, majority of us wish to coexist with each other, otherwise there wouldn't be societies, governments, etc.

define "better", I think the concept of superiority is rather arbitrary with no context added to it.

Marriage not reffering to any sort of physical object has no solidity to it in that context therefore is incapable of having any "hardness" :P

Who said anything about guess work? I'm talking about intuition. Intuition is simply the collection of previous experiences.

How do you tell the difference? Intuition isn't just previous experiences, previous UNCONCIOUS experiences... perhaps, but no... previous experience is wisdom and hands on learning. Intuition is usually knowing something, without knowing how you know it.

Even-though I have never disarmed a bomb, I am mechanically inclined and have knowledge of electronics. The trouble with people is they project their lack of experience, knowledge, and wisdom on to every one else.

That information was never provided... So of course I haven't calculated that, why would I just assume that you had that sort of knowledge? however, still, you would probably be even better off relying on that AND trying to do some research... no reason you can't have both.

Even lies have some truth in them and that's how one should look at all information, especially when it is found on-line.

I do think, people should be sceptical when researching online, as the internet is probably FULL of misinformation, however, if you are good at weeding out misinformation from information, and knowing where to find the most reliable data... You are probably are better off researching as well.

The clock is ticking. You have 3 minutes to disarm the bomb. Go ahead and write your thesis.

You never provided the amount of time that we would have, so again there is no way I can incorporate that information, and with no reason to think that you have any education relevant to this, I would think you would be better off doing research... I assumed your hypothetical applied to everyone in general not just you, otherwise it loses it's point.

Those things are empirical in the field of history, however, the claim of god's existence does not have any empirical evidence to back it up. We can rely on documentation of things, but there is a huge difference in relying on documentation of a man named Jesus, and a higher power in the universe... One is an ordinary claim that we know is not all that improbable, people with names have existed for centuries, and people named Jesus (a handful of them) have existed in the past. Higher powers, and gods, that's a different story, an extra-ordinary claim.

Can you say at what point sentience is developed?

When we can detect any signs of sentience, I think the first sign of sentience would be the experience of pain.

If it can't be pinned down, are you comfortable with risking murder?

In most cases it can.

If it can be pinned down, are you willing to say that it's a human being "now" and not "2 seconds ago"?

no, I think 2 seconds would be way to small of a range, but, if it hasn't come too close to the point of developing sentience, then I see no issue.

I think you have presented a false choice. I think most moral statements are only true under specific circumstances. Some few are true in every situation.

Ok, let me be more precise, non-cognitivism is the idea that moral statements never express true or false propisitions. Where cognitvism is that moral statement can express true or false propisitions.

Maybe it only seems like a fact then?....lol

"Our morality is shaped by what we value most." What we value in no way is an expression of truth, the only truth it expresses is what you value, nothing more.

When a moral statement is true, to behave accordingly will reliably aid in the protecting and obtaining of what the individual or group deems valuable.

When a moral statement is true, to behave accordingly will reliably aid in the protecting and obtaining of what the individual or group deems valuable.

Again, that is not truth... I mean, the nazi's valued certain genes over others, and thus it would be a true statement (according to this) that some people are more inferior to other people.

How so? Morality is convenient, but this is largely as a consequence of its subjective nature. Morality is not and never has been governed by reason or logic, but is primarily a projection of subjective emotional constructs. To call morality a process of reason and logic is to so utterly alter the meaning of morality as to render the term itself meaningless. At best, one can acknowledge that morality is non-truth apt; this merely informs us, however, that far from indicating what is real in actuality morality instead communicates only what we would like reality to be.

Well although morality is not truth apt, it however can have reason applied to it. It's just not a PURELY logical process. Hybrid theory, the idea that morality is not truth apt, with truth apt features. For example I can have reasoning behind my attitudes of approval and disapproval, but ultimately I will always be expressing only that, my attitudes of approval and disapproval, rather than the truth about anything. For example.

It is immoral to lie because dishonest breaches trust, therefore it is immoral to get somebody else to lie for you. reasoning, for why I disapprove of something.

That moral platforms are the normative basis for advancing arguments does not make them innately preferable or remotely necessary. The difference between morality and philosophy is that all moral systems are innately subjective distortions of reality, whereas not all philosophies must act accordingly. That said, you seem to be presuming that the only alternative to the moral platform is the philosophical narrative. That is fallacious in my opinion.

I think of morality as more of sub branch of philosophy concerning how we should behave amongst each other, or more precisely concerning attitudes of approval and disapproval.

Again, that is not entirely accurate. Certain philosophical schools may establish themselves around objective observation, whereas all moralities are innately subjective projections of emotion judgement.

I can't disagree with you much there, although, in a non-cognitivist view it is acknowledged that emotion forms some basis in morality, however it still have a good amount of utility to it.

I do not disagree with your observations here, except for your reintroduction of morality as a logical process. People may reason from their moral premise, but so long as their reasoning is premised upon their morality it is fruit of the poisoned tree.

I would disagree, I think it is entirely possible to come to moral premises from reason, however, it's just not purely logical because it is compromised by how we think the world should be. However, how we think the world should be, is something we can definitely reason, debate, and discuss.

My argument is that morality is not only unnecessary to that process, but damaging to it on account of the subjective assumptions it uses to frame all thought and discussion. If the lens is a distortion of reality, then everything seen through it will be similarly distorted. Better to reject morality entirely, rather than attempting to salvage it through qualification.

...Or we can recognize that morality does not in any way determine the reality of things, but rather what should be encouraged and discouraged.

Certainly, it has served its evolutionary function as both coping mechanism and behavioral moderator. At the same time, I think it is not the most efficient mechanism to either end.

I think that the language of morality serves us more good than bad, if we are to recognize it as non-truth apt. It is a convenient means of expressing attitudes of approval and disapproval, and a convenient means of reasoning what is logical to approve and disapprove.

Morality fosters ignorance, if not outright rejection, of reality. Morality has also been used to legitimate and make permissible objectively damaging behavior, probably at least as much as it has prevented it or encouraged objectively constructive behavior.

Well moral platforms are the platforms of which we reason and debate amongst each other, how we should behave, and thus of course people there are going to be people who argue for unhealthy human behavior as moral. It's like philosophy, I could easily argue that philosophy fosters ignorance as well, as many dangerous, and irrational convictions have been made permissible through the use of philosophy, does that however mean we should reject.

There is nothing to morality dictating that it lead to an objectively better effect than the alternative of its absence; its very subjectivity renders it that way.

Same could be said for philosophy, the language of morality is a means to which we converse about how one should act, I think a problem with morality is that people are naturally dogmatic about morality, because our attitudes of approval and disapproval we want to desperately think as truth and knowledge that others only haven't came to have hold because they are more incorrect. The idea that morality doesn't manifest in the form of knowledge, is scary to people, because there isn't a natural moral consensus for all of us to eventually reach, that people can have entirely different ideas of right and wrong, and be just as logical as themselves. It is a threatening to our idea of how things should be. However, we still need to able to reason and even argue over the healthiest ways for us, as a species, to coexist with each other, while recognizing that how we think and feel how people should behave is not knowledge, but attitudes of approval and disapproval.

That's just not how the term "homophobia" is used, the term homophobia almost always refer to a prejudice. To act like it doesn't would lead to confusion.

I feel the layman's and mainstream take on morality is rather awkward and gives off this vibe that morality is some sort of aura or manifests some sort of real existing attribute to things of which needs to be explained. This definitely seems to hold true when people assert that the existence of morality must indicate a deity's existence to explain where and how morality came from. Moral nihilism has always been appealing to avoid exactly that. However, I think morality serves the purpose of reasoning amongst each other on how we should co-exist, and perhaps that's why we developed it. Non-cognitivism is appealing to me since its a way of discussing moral and immoral, right and wrong while cutting out that "awkwardness".

I appreciate you taking the time to understand my explanation of non-cognitivism.

I do not hold any positive conviction in the existence of a deity as valid reasoning to at least even suspect the existence of a deity has not been presented to me yet. I need valid reasoning to think anything is true, otherwise scepticism is logical by default.

There is a difference between artificial intelligence and artificial consciousness, it seems you are describing the latter. If we were to ever create artificial consciousness, a digital sentience if you will, then we should probably grant it personhood as a sentientist myself.

That's fucking hilarious right there, I think that's the best way to go so far, with a laugh. XD

Why is that the best ?

True, of course if you somehow manage to fail that method you end up in severe pain the next day.

Why is that the beat method ?

Decapitation would rid you of your head. Why is a shotgun to the head the best?

Why ?

Since when has the information on the internet been reliable?

I'm not saying information on the internet is necessarily reliable, but researching via internet is probably more reliable than guess work when it comes to disarming a bomb... I don't know how to wrap my mind around how you think contrary.

How do know that the website with the information to disarm the bomb wasn't put there by the terrorist themselves?

Ok, first of all, again I'm not saying that information on the internet isn't necessarily reliable, but i'd rather take my chances at finding a reliable source online to how to disarm a bomb, than just doing random shit with it and hoping I don't blow us up... the latter there seems ten folds more naive... I am sorry, but if I agreed with you, we'd both be idiots...

Only somebody young wouldn't question the information.

I would question the information, it's just that, I'd rather work off the most reliable information via internet then guesswork. Only somebody young and stupid, would literally think it would be better to disarm a gun based off of guesswork, than to actually try to do some sort of research...

Saying that the Bible (a collection of 66 books) is just one book isn't good enough but an article in a journal is accurate, nothing like ignoring the facts.

There is a huge difference between citing an ancient text with nothing to back it up but popular opinion... and citing an article backed by scientific study and investigation. The scientific article at least references empirical evidence, the best the bible would have are philosophical arguments which I would be more than willing to evaluate any brought up here.

So quoting sources that have shown to be accurate and informative, and crediting them with information you have obtained is wrong? I guess learning is bad, and that you should never learn things from other people ever... now don't mind me as I lock myself into a cave and isolate myself from all of humanity so that I can figure everything out on my own...

I'm still here. How old are you? Contact me when you're 50, then you can tell me how the world really works.

wait... wait... wait. wait. wait a second here...

let me get this straight. You are more wise than he... because you think its better to disarm a bomb by guesswork in contrast to relying on the most reliable information possible... and you are lecturing him on naivety? Okay???

"relying on intuition" for disarming a bomb opposed to other information out there, sounds like something a young whippersnapper would do to be honest...

No the worst time to have a heart attack is during a play/movie where you are supposed to act out a scene where you have a heart attack ;)

As long as the fetus has not developed sentience, then I can't see anything wrong with aborting it. You aren't ending a life, you may be preventing one from developing but not terminating one. To be outraged by abortion to me is like being outraged that hypothetical person with a, b, c traits hasn't came into existence.

Yah, sorry. I was using a mobile device when I clicked on your above link, but it said that the page didn't exist for some reason, so I assumed that you were either referring to the conventional of Jungian context of "cognitive".

Well, I was really frustrated the day I made the response that you have just responded to, and I think I may have been unreasonable. It is rather unreasonable of me to expect people to understand what exactly I mean by "cognitive" and "non-cognitive" without clarifying in the debate description, after all, the cognition of morality, is a rather unheard of philosophical controversy.

You, Jung, and I would agree with that, it seems that Jung has also arrived at the same conclusion with Fi vs Fe. However, non cognitivists deny that:

"moral judgments are capable of being objectively true, because they describe some feature of the world."

but somehow seems to paradoxically imply that:

"that moral knowledge is impossible."

Assuming that moral knowledge is impossible, then there shouldn't be any way to know that a moral claim can't objectively true.

Getting back to what cognitivists assert:

If you define moral knowledge as "justified truth conviction" as plato did, then only statements that express truth can result in expressions of knowledge. If moral stances are not truth based, they can not be knowledge. If "murder is immoral" is not an expression of truth, it cannot express knowledge.

I'm not sure if they mean this in an absolute sense (you can't be 100% sure that I'm not a cat), or a practical sense (I typed this with my fingers). If you read further, it seems to take it as if we can handle it as absolutes.

It seems like these two camps are too specific and present a false dichotomy.

Not vague, it's just that, moral statements are not true nor false, this aligns with the correspondence theory of truth, where truth is supposed to describe the real world. "One should not murder other people" does not at all describe how the real world actually is, to one who defines truth by the correspondence theory, in order for that statement to be true, it would have to be against the laws of physics to murder other people, otherwise what is the statement expressing the truth about other than what you are disapproving of?

No worries, I knew the cognition of morality is something that very few people have heard of, so it is actually rather silly of me to assume people would immediately know that the term "cognition" is a philosophical term of significance. So I apologize.

In other words, the non-cognitivist recognizes morality as innately subjective but still acknowledges that it exists.

That way of putting it strangely resonates with me a bit, however a non-cognitivist might argue that moral statements don't express any truth, subjective or objective, if our idea of truth is that of the correspondence theory of truth: "The correspondence theory of truth states that the truth or falsity of a statement is determined only by how it relates to the world and whether it accurately describes (i.e., corresponds with) that world." For example to say the statement "thou shalt not murder" is a true statement, according to this theory, would literally mean it's against the laws of physics to murder people... The statement "You should not kill other people" does not describe the real world in any way, but rather is more of a suggestion to how people should behave in it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correspondence theoryoftruth

Now the statement "You should not kill other people" could be a true statement in accordance to the correspondence theory of truth if you were to add "...generally speaking, in order to preserve life."

fail to see how this is actually any different than the moral nihilist who sees morality as a human construction and emotional projection, but understands that people obviously still subscribe to it.

Technically non-cognitivism is a form of moral nihilism, it's just that moral nihilism tends to automatically be more associated with what one might call "error theory". That all moral statements are automatically false and thus to say anything is right/moral wrong/immoral is an error (hence the term "error theory").

s the difference that the non-cognitivist would still subscribe to morality personally or advocate for its utility? Or am I missing some other distinction?

Well technically non-cognitivism and error theory are both forms of moral nihilism, where most moral nihilists are typically error theorists (to the point that anyone who claims to be a moral nihilist is usually assumed to be an error theorist, and non-cognitivism is rarely heard of).

edit

A big difference between error theorist moral nihilism and non-cognitivist moral nihilism is that, non-cognitivists can still state things are moral or immoral, but that when they do so, they acknowledge that they are simply venting their feelings and there attitudes of approval and disapproval.