The intellectual cowardice of everyone except me.
Factmachine
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Everyone else who sucks
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You don’t have a history on this site that supports your claim that you are not an intellectual coward. You even entered a debate about your own cowardice and provided a demonstration. Most of your debate topics are troll work. Perhaps that’s why I failed to notice one on fractional banking. Link to it. Now that you know that I am actually, literally a self propelled fart bag, how does it feel to constantly loose to me? Side: Factmachine
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Mathfan seems like he's neutral about pretty much everything which gets on my nerves What do you mean by "neutral about pretty much everything"? I think that I have taken very clear stances on a number of issues that I have commented on. If you want me to be more precise about a specific issue, I will gladly do so if you point to what topics you are referring to specifically. If I have a well thought out position than I will state it clearly, if I don't have a well thought out "end game" type position, then I will just point to potential positives and negatives. Btw, I would be happy to discuss/debate topics in Science. Science (particularly Physics) and Mathematics are my main passions. I view politics, history, philosophy, ect. as necessities given we are part of this world and it is extremely important to have some understanding/involvement in what is going on (and has occurred in the past) and am therefore very interested/passionate about these topics as well. I get involved with the debates on this site that have the most activity because I want to debate/discuss with others. Side: Everyone else who sucks
I'm happy to debate most topics but confess I like controversial subjects as they make for some excellent exchanges ; C D is an ultra aggressive site as in most debates end up in brawls no other site gets as much action though . I try in most debates to engage fairly but my rule is if you throw the first insult or sarcastic remark the same shall be served out ; If that changes to a mutually friendly l exchange without snarks that's great I will behave in a similar way The site with by far the highest amount of Academics in every field including a fair amount of universally famous ones is Quora its Canadian run and patrolled by moderates who are so P C it's beyond belief ; it's also rather sad as people are followed for who they are and how many followers they have . It has in fairness no trolls and the level of intelligence is mostly pretty high amongst the regular debaters but the " action " is slow . I rarely visit Quora as last time I made a rather harmless joke about Trump and I was given a stiff warning , I got a six week ban for saying Islam was regressive and divisive ; who needs a site with censorship . Regards I Q 's I never placed much credence on these type of tests but I will correct you on one slight error you made as a much younger man I was put forward by my college to sit the Mensa test where I scored 135 which put in the top 5 % worldwide as in genius class 👌😊😊 I don't support any political parties at all I was involved in politics over here and it gave me a universal dislike for politicians who mostly are in it for the power and the money this applies universally and I've seen nothing that has changed my mind ; worldwide we elect people who cannot talk for themselves as every word they say is P C friendly gibberish written by P R. Gurus . Look at the language of politics as in over here politicians every day repeat the latest P R bullshit mantras as in .... " we as a country are facing challenges " , " moving forward our aim is ......" , " " working together we can achieve so much "............it's all bullshit and universal weasel talk . I don't like the term " left wing " it's just an easy labelling and people and their particular views are more complicated than that I do support social equality and egalitarianism, often in opposition to social hierarchy and social inequality, I would see that as something laudable and worth pursuing Side: Everyone else who sucks
@Dermot Regards I Q 's I never placed much credence on these type of tests but I will correct you on one slight error you made as a much younger man I was put forward by my college to sit the Mensa test where I scored 135 which put in the top 5 % worldwide as in genius class 👌😊😊 I would point out that this is actually quite plausible--and, in fact, it would put you in the top 2% worldwide. However, note, 145 and above is considered "genius" level. In order to achieve an IQ in the mid 130s at the age range you are discussing (college age(?)), that would indicate an SAT score of approximately 1900 on a scale of 2400 (or roughly a 1350 on a 1600 scale). To put that in perspective, the typical minimal acceptance score (to be eligible/consider for acceptance--but by no means necessarily guarunteed) to some major Colleges are: -UCLA, 1270 -UC Berkely, 1340 -New York University, 1340 -Penn State-Main Campus, 1180 -USC, 1360 -University of Michigan-Main Campus, 1370 -Harvard, 1470 -UPenn, 1470 -Yale, 1490 -University of Florida, 1250 -University of Maryland, 1280 -MIT, 1480 Now, the numbers above compared to your converted SAT number of 1350-1370 suggests: (A) You would be able to enter a 50ish level school (i.e. Penn State, U Florida, Maryland, ect.) with relative ease. At such a school, you could either choose a "standard" major such as Business, Education, History, ect. and get high marks (i.e. greater than or equal to 3.5 out of 4) or be a Physics major in which you will be slightly above the middle of the class (i.e. on a 1-10 scale, you'd be about a 6--thus, this would likely be about a B- average in Technical courses) (B) You possibly could attend a 25ish level school (i.e. Michigan, NYU, USC, ect.), you would likely want to choose a "standard" major, in which your marks would (likely) be "average" in the 2.0-2.9 range, though a 3.0ish is a possibility also. A Physics/Math major at such a rigorous school would (very likely) prove overwhelming. (C) You would not be able to get into the Elite Schools (i.e. Harvard, Yale, MIT, ect.) (D) You could go to a 100-150 level school, and (likely) get nearly a 4.0gpa in a "standard" major, or do well in Physics/Math (i.e. 3.0-3.3gpa) (E) You could go to a State School (i.e. small local College, unranked) and do very well in any subject you choose, though Physics/Math will still prove challenging at times, you would likely achieve a 3.3+ average i.e. B+ or higher. As for "standard" majors, you would (very likely) breeze through easily with a 3.75-4.0gpa Side: Factmachine
@FactMachine Preamble: This is an old Thread, though I would like to focus in on a topic discussed here as I have been giving the subject research attention as of late and would be interested in exploring it further (if you or other members were interested) 9)The smartest people here other than me are mathfan, dermot, and nomenclature. Nomenclature is a fucking retard and a communist despite the fact that he's the 4th smartest, Dermot is too lefty, and Mathfan seems like he's neutral about pretty much everything which gets on my nerves. I would say my IQ is a good 130, Mathfan is about 115, Dermot is about 105, and Nomenclature is about an 80. Everyone else is below 60 IQ points. Now, the subject I intend to explore further is your general discussion of IQ ranges. If your claims are to be taken seriously (which, I realize there may be quite some hyperbole built into your statements), it seems you are both drastically overestimating what a "100 base standard" IQ person would look like, as well as how deficient a person of 80 or 60 below IQ would be (as for the 60 below, I'm sure this must be intentionally severely exaggerated). Furthermore, I am interested in exploring the implications of this material Note: I am generally going to leave attempts to rank members aside, and discuss what the ball-park ranges would look like, and then we can discuss what that generally look like in terms of members on this Board in later posts (generally speaking)--though I think you will find that the average IQ of the members on this board is much, much higher than you may have realized (for reasons we will be see below) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Consider, a normal IQ score falls between the range 85-115 which is approximately 70% of the population (and only 15% of people have an IQ of 115 or above), while an extended average IQ range tends to encompass those between 80-119 which is "x"% of the population. In order to qualify for the International High IQ Society, one must have an IQ of 125 or above, while entry into Mensa (a High IQ organization that represents the upper 2% of the population) requires an IQ of 2 standard deviations above average (or 130 and above). For the lower end of the bell curve, this will be explored later on in the post (as well as a more proper breakdown of the rest of the distribution). Now, what do these numbers mean? That is, in principle, what can one do with a 100 IQ? It turns out, many studies have been done linking average IQ scores to completion of College Majors, SAT scores, and GRE (set aside the problematic elements for a moment, of which we can explore later). As for College Majors, studies have revealed a strong correlation for between those who go far into/complete specific college majors and IQ. The breakdown is as follows: Top End of Spectrum -Physics & Astronomy (133) -Mathematical Sciences (130) -Philosophy (129) -Materials Engineering (129) -Economics (128) -Chemical Engineering (128) -Other Engineering (128) -Mechanical Engineering (126)
Bottom End of Spectrum -Administration (107) -Home Economics (106) -Special (106) -Student Counseling (105) -Early Childhood (104) -Social Work (103) In order to attend College and be successful, it was found that an IQ of 110-115 is standardly required. Now, if a person with a 110-115 IQ attempted to be a Physics & Astronomy major, it has been found that they would quickly run into trouble and likely have to drop out (or fail out) early on. However, they would be successful at other college majors, some of which were listed previously. Then, an individual with a 100 base IQ has been shown to not (currently) be able to attend college successfully. To put this in practical terms, lets take the example of those with an IQ 2 standard deviations from the norm in the adult population (2% of the population), or Physics & Astronomy combined with Mathematical Sciences Majors (closely followed by Philosophy and certain Engineering Majors, but we will limit our discussion to those past the threshold). This indicates that if we took a random sampling of 100 adults, approximately 2 would have a mind currently capable of the "brain power" necessary to do Complex Analysis or Statistical Mechanics (which is in-line with Senior level Physics or Math major cognitive abilities). As for what a 115 IQ would look like in practical terms, such a person would (currently) struggle tremendously to get a Political Science degree if they were able to attain it at all (IQ 120), while they would be able to get a degree in Business (114), Education (110), ect. See list here for more details: https://thetab.com/us/2017/04/10/which-major-has-highest-iq-64811 Now, IQ links to Standardized Tests such as the SAT and GRE are quite interesting as well--let us proceed with investigating the case of SAT scores. We will use the 1600 score standard (Note: a link to conversions between 2400 to 1600 score standards will be provided under Sources if one were curious). Consider, a score of 925 on the SAT (is claimed) to translate to a base 100 IQ. Here is an outline mapping out key points on the Bell Curve: IQ, SAT, Meaning - 55, 400, Trainable Moderate Mental Retardation - 66, 525, Mild Mental Retardation - 75, 630, Borderline Mental Retardation - 87, 775, Dull - 100, 935, Average - 113, 1100, Bright - 120, 1200, Very Bright - 130, 1310, Extremely Bright - 141, 1445, Briliant - 151, 1575, Very Brilliant For convenience, a few figures converted to the 2400 point scale (conversion chart here- https://blog.prepscholar.com/new-sat-conversion-chart-old-2400-to-new-1600 ): IQ, SAT - 75, 820 - 87, 1020 - 100, 1260 - 113, 1510 - 120, 1670 - 130, 1840 - 141, 2070 - 151, 2340 [Note: There are various IQ scales, some reach to numbers higher well higher to this, this is a Standard Scales, others could be used with similar (though varying in extent) results] Follow this link to find an IQ Reference Table which outlines IQ ranges and typical corresponding abilities: https://www.easycalculation.com/medical/iq-score-table.php Below is a transcription of the outline (IQ range, Category, Typical Ability): 1. 0-24 Profound Mental Retardation Limited or no ability to communicate, eat, bath, dress and toilet. 2. 25-39 Severe Mental Retardation Limited ability to communicate, eat, bath, dress and toilet. No academic skills. 3. 40-54 Moderate Mental Retardation Some independent self-help skills and very basic academic skills. 4. 55-69 Mild Mental Retardation Usually able to dress/bath independently and can do simple jobs. Elementary school academics. 5. 70-79 Border Line May live independently with difficulties. Can perform simple and repetitive jobs. 6. 80-89 Low Average Can complete vocational education and live independently. 7. 90-109 Average Can complete high school graduation and college with difficulty. 8. 110-119 High Average Typical level of college graduates. 9. 120-129 Superior Typical level of persons with doctoral degrees. 10. 130-144 Gifted Capable of understanding highly, complex academic material. 11. 145-159 Genius Exception intellectual ability and capable of looking beyond known facts. 12. 160-175 Extraordinary genius Extraordinary talent like Albert Einstein
Sources 1. www.iqcomparisonsite.com/oldSATIQ.aspx 2. https://www.statisticbrain.com/iq-estimates-by-intended-college-major/ 3. www.i3mindware.com/what-is-an-iq-test-and-iq-score 4. https://www.123test.com/interpretation-of-an-iq-score/ 5. https://pumpkinperson.com/2015/12/16/revised-chart-converting-sat-scores-to-iq-equivalents/ 7. https://thetab.com/us/2017/04/10/which-major-has-highest-iq-64811 8. https://blog.prepscholar.com/new-sat-conversion-chart-old-2400-to-new-1600 9. https://www.easycalculation.com/medical/iq-score-table.php 10. https://www.easycalculation.com/medical/ 11. www.highiqpro.com/iq-academic-success/academic-achievement-income-iq 12. www.randalolson.com/2014/06/25/average-iq-of-students-by-college-major-and-gender-ratio/ Side: Everyone else who sucks
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@xMathFanx If your claims are to be taken seriously (which, I realize there may be quite some hyperbole built into your statements) Yes, there is a great deal of hyperbole in those IQ estimates. Plus that post was a while ago. In order to make accurate estimates we first need to take into account that IQ tests only deal with a limited range of cognitive measurements. When I made those estimates I was not only engaging in hyperbole but I was also making judgements based on the exact type of things that an IQ test isn't designed for. For example, Nomenclature probably has a higher IQ than 80, in fact his IQ is probably above average, but he is ideologically retarded and lacks basic common sense in many regards. If there was an all encompassing type of IQ test many of the people who have high IQs or normal IQs by today's standards would get low scores and vice versa. For example if you gave an IQ test to a cro magnon they probably wouldn't even understand it, yet you could clearly observe that they have a great deal of intelligence when it comes to turning the resources in their environment to their advantage. I think you will find that the average IQ of the members on this board is much, much higher than you may have realized We are in agreement that the average create debate member has an higher than average IQ. Which is concerning because even though they are smarter than the average person people like Amarel and Antrim etc. are completely ignorant fools. They are stuck in most of the same delusions an average human would be stuck in, maybe if they where conditioned in a different environment they wouldn't think as idiotically. A Cro Magnon like I mentioned earlier could easily adapt to modern society if they where raised in that environment, some of them might even get doctorates degrees. So there is no reason someone from modern society couldn't be less subjective and uncivilized if they where exposed to a non-retarded environment for long enough. Maybe Amarel for example wouldn't think subjective things are made of some sort of metaphysical substance that exists in the aether if he wasn't raised in a society and culture based on subjective things and social constructs. Side: Everyone else who sucks
@The0bserver In order to make accurate estimates we first need to take into account that IQ tests only deal with a limited range of cognitive measurements....If there was an all encompassing type of IQ test many of the people who have high IQs or normal IQs by today's standards would get low scores and vice versa. Interesting. Now, the first statement we undoubtedly agree on, the second we may also--although I would have to see you detail your argument more to be sure. Now, I think I have already addressed some areas where IQ has some reasonable success, then, I will focus in on areas that I view as problematic. (A) IQ tests are right to time tests in certain areas, as computational speed is pertinent to intelligence. However, this is also highly limited that there is not a section that accounts for deep critical thought that occurs over very long time periods, such as the intelligence required to read a book the likes of "Gulliver's Travels" by Jonathon Swift and follow what is going on to the depth that the author intended. Or, better yet, to independently create such a story. Consider, this is truly one of the most important types of human intellect, which helps distinguish us from "calculators" (which, although very fast & powerful, are quite constrained in ability to the "rules"). A true intelligence test should be taking this into account, separate to the portions of the test that are timed (B) Many of the questions themselves are fundamentally flawed. As the member SeanB rightly pointed out, Psychologists are attempting to design an all encompassing intelligence test while failing to realize that they necessarily aren't the most intelligent--thus would fail at the task in ways they (very likely) are unable to foresee (or possibly even understand). Consider, some of the question are typically along the line, "Identify the pattern, determine what comes next". Now, it is quite possible that there is more than one pattern that may occur to a person of high intellect, thus delaying their computational speed score and (possibly) arriving at the "wrong" conclusion--even though the pattern identified is entirely self-consistent. (C) Background knowledge is necessary in order to take the test, thus those unfamiliar with, for instance, particular terms or membership to a group, will necessarily do poorly on such a question, regardless of their ability to identify the relationship (or not). (D) There are far superior ways to test for computational speed and power, although it would necessarily require education (which they are attempting to factor out of the equation). Now, an issue with not introducing this factor is that it can truly skew the results. That is, it is patently obvious that a human mind capable of doing some extremely involved triple integral in their head within a certain time constraint (i.e. while timed) is a much better indicator of their brain's computational speed & power then essentially the riddles that are often employed in IQ tests. Now, it is absurd to claim that if person (A) can do the triple integral problem but gets "tripped up" on the IQ riddle problem, while person (B) cannot not even dream of doing the triple integral prb. while flies through the IQ riddle--then, person (B) is therefore more Quantitatively intelligent/advanced (although this is the current system). Note: This is not just a hypothetical, it has famously been reported that Richard Feynman scored an IQ of 125 while a typical Physics Major is (claimed) to be IQ 133. This is an absurdity, and demonstrates a clear issue with the testing, not that Feynman somehow managed to win a Nobel in Physics for his work in QED, contribute to the Manhattan Project, ect. with an intelligence level less than a typical Physics Undergraduate--as many people actually seem to believe simply because of the authority surrounding IQ tests Side: Everyone else who sucks
You say ........-though I think you will find that the average IQ of the members on this board is much, much higher than you may have realized (for reasons we will be see below)........ I think that’s not true at all the average members on C D are mostly American and a fair amount are religious nuts who are are anti science , think evolution is nonsense and global warming is a hoax , they also believe Europe is a socialist hell and its people love Islam . The reason I post very little on this site is because it’s so incredibly juvenile with perhaps the most ignorant and poorly educated people I’ve come across on any debate site ; have a look at the quality of debate and debaters on Quora and the difference is startling and it tends to draw the more educated debater with a fair amount of European , African and American academics . The only problem with Quora is its far too P C and overly sensitive giving out bans for any infringement of the rules , the worst debaters on Quora are still a country mile ahead of the average on here Side: Factmachine
@Dermot I think that’s not true at all the average members on C D are mostly American and a fair amount are religious nuts who are are anti science , think evolution is nonsense and global warming is a hoax , they also believe Europe is a socialist hell and its people love Islam . The issue appears to be your current perception of what a 100 IQ indicates. Now, 110-115 indicates the necessary standard IQ in order to be successful in College with some Major--typically a "soft" major such as Business, Education, Social Work, ect. Now, even a Political Science major requires an IQ of about 120--if their IQ was say 113, they would struggle tremendously to keep up in a Poly. Sci. major and very likely drop out/fail out. For rigorous majors, it goes: -Physics (133) -Math (130) -Philosophy (129) -Engineering (125-128) Remember, that is just Undergraduate. As Education level increases, so does standard IQ correlation. Now, many/most of the people on this site communicate with the knowledge and skills of a person with at least College experience (or on par with such experience), others it would seem with higher educational attainment, more rigorous majors, or information/knowledge that the average College graduate does not possess. Those who do not fit into this category, I would argue, appear to be in the minority. To put a face on this, Nomenclature is a College Graduate with a Journalist B.A. and has information that a typical college graduate does not. Therefore, this would objectively seem to put him around the 120 mark or so (i.e. more than 1 standard deviation above the norm). To push that further, Nomenclature is approximately 5 points shy of the International High IQ Society. Hence, most people on this site are 1 standard deviation or above from the norm, and some are 2 or above, few are at 100 or below. The simple fact is, a person at 100 or below is much, much less likely to seek out an intellectually stimulating Forum where they enjoy reading, thinking, doing independent research, marshalling an argument/response, ect. Then, as FactMachine/Dagenious rightly pointed out, this is giving us very interesting insight into what "average" human intelligence is capable of. I think you will find, your perception of the "average" is skewed to think that 100 is more intelligent than it actually is. So, if you look at the World objectively through this lenses, it would appear to make more sense how our societies are structured the way they are with the "she-people" mentality that you have often cited on this forum. Quora Yes, Quora is indeed attracting people of higher IQ (on average) since it is Academically oriented. Now, the people on Quora tend to much more often hold advanced degrees (i.e. M.A., PhD) and/or rigorous fields (e.g. STEM, ect.). Then, the average IQ of Quora members is easily a deviation or so up from here. Consider, the average Grad School student or degree holder IQ is between 125-134--and that is for non-technical disciplines. Technical disciplines it ups to 135-144 (for M.S., PhD). Then, University Professors (of which there are many on Quora) tend to be 145-154. To give this further perspective, Nobel Prize winners are 155-164. Now, the reason this is extremely interesting is because, for instance, the member MarcusMoon has a Philosophy degree as well as 2 others. Now, objectively, this would seem to put him roughly 2 standard deviations from the "norm" or "general public". Then, that means MarcusMoon is approximately as far away from the general public as a Nobel Prize winner is from him. Let that sink in for a moment. Now, I consider marcus to be a reasonably intelligent person (of which I have enjoyed conversing with and sharing ideas--hopefully he has found it mutually beneficial, as it has been for me) and he is most certainly light-years away from the general public, though I think it may start to hit you based on this that "we" as a species, are very limited in our intellectual capacities indeed--and that the "average human" is not necessarily "intelligent" at all. Also, there really aren't many humans in the recorded history of Humanity that "break out of the box" much. Our upper ceiling at the moment is not very high at all. This is why a person such as Plato (or "Socrates") can become legendary by stating some relatively basic/standard brainstorming, observations, arguments, ect. ect. The distance between us is (currently) very, very close and yet so, so far away. It is truly fascinating. I hope this has cleared up the motivation behind this discussion more, as well as what "Human Range Intelligence" actually looks like, at the moment. Needless to say, I would be interested in exploring this further if you or other members would like to do so Side: Factmachine
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