CreateDebate is a social debate community built around ideas, discussion and democracy.
If this is your first time checking out a debate, here are some quick tips to help get you started:
Arguments with the highest score are displayed first.
Argument replies (both in favor and in opposition) are displayed below the original argument.
To follow along, you may find it helpful to show and hide the replies displayed below each argument.
To vote for an argument, use these icons:
You have the power to cast exactly one vote (either up or down) for each argument.
Once you vote, the icon will become grayed out and the argument's score will change.
Yes, you can change your vote.
Debate scores, side scores and tag scores are automatically calculated by an algorithm that primarily takes argument scores into account.
All scores are updated in real-time.
To learn more about the CreateDebate scoring system, check out the FAQ.
When you are ready to voice your opinion, use the Add Argument button to create an argument.
If you would like to address an existing argument, use the Support and Dispute link within that argument to create a new reply.
Well the reason is because God knows what's going to happen in the future and He probably knows that man would sin and so the 6 days of the week are meant for working and Sunday we rest because that is when God didn't add anything to Creation because He was finished.
jesus fucking christ i don't have the energy for this shit
preordination doesn't rule out free will in a non-ontological sense any more than secular determinism does: that we are bound to the future, whether it be by causality or divine foreknowledge doesn't vitiate voluntary action
i know you're at that point in your knowledge where you think you know a lot more than everybody else because your total ignorance is so recently memorable but you have to make room in your cognizance for the fact (and it is always a fact) that somebody knows more than you do and it will probably fucking behoove you not to act like an insolent little shit if you care more about tangible learning and knowledge than the mere perception of being right in the face of the similarly-minded
and i suppose i'm guilty of a similar sin in presuming that you'll be able to infer the whole of my meaning if you care enough to read all of my comments since i've bothered to educate myself enough that i could if i were the reader but dammit at least mine is a sin of excessive benevolence; yours is born of the arrogance so characteristic of atheists, through and through
and oh my god "how dare you plague this argument" holy tits you are a hilarious scarecrow of a person
preordination doesn't rule out free will in a non-ontological sense any more than secular determinism does: that we are bound to the future, whether it be by causality or divine foreknowledge doesn't vitiate voluntary action
You're just denying it, but in an overly-technical manner.
What I am saying is; assuming God is omnipotent, with the power to foresee the actions of human beings, he would, in his infinite power, see, in his own creation, the actions they may take. Some humans are even good at predicting the behavior of humans, since they are so predictable when comparing past preferences. You can also predict what a person may do in the future via scanning their minds.>>> http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2008/04/mind_decision
Which begs the question why the hell would God have judgement on people the first place? Some people can be born with the mind of a serial killer, which makes them incapable to consciously control their actions than others with healthy minds. Does this mean from the way they are born, they would ultimately deserve an eternity of hell?
Who the fuck would still believe eternal hell as punishment anyway.
i know you're at that point in your knowledge where you think you know a lot more than everybody else because your total ignorance is so recently memorable but you have to make room in your cognizance for the fact (and it is always a fact) that somebody knows more than you do and it will probably fucking behoove you not to act like an insolent little shit if you care more about tangible learning and knowledge than the mere perception of being right in the face of the similarly-minded
and i suppose i'm guilty of a similar sin in presuming that you'll be able to infer the whole of my meaning if you care enough to read all of my comments since i've bothered to educate myself enough that i could if i were the reader but dammit at least mine is a sin of excessive benevolence; yours is born of the arrogance so characteristic of atheists, through and through
and oh my god "how dare you plague this argument" holy tits you are a hilarious scarecrow of a person
Subjective shit...
Mildly ironic, on your part.
I find it annoying how you wish to categorize me, saying I was born in Arrogance, when I was a full on Christian from birth- extremely defensive of my religion.
I am aware of what I am saying, but you're taking it too far with these assumptions.
God must have known that Eve was going to eat the fruit. He must have known Adam would also eat of the fruit. He knew Cain was going to kill Abel. He knew Sodom and Gomorrah were going to be cesspools of sin. He knew he was going to have to flood the entire world.
Or, is god like that weird alien in Men In Black 3 who can coexists in multiple temporal realities at once, never knowing which is going to come true before it transpires?
First of all God didn't create man to sin He created them absolutely perfect...He made one rule and aha Satan entered to create conflict man disobeyed the on rule given him and voila...we're sinful.
Second, How else would He be able to show His incredible love and power?
And then he made a hell, with satan too. And now sinners are suffering for an eternity, despite their sins nothing to compare for a eternity of suffering.
It doesn't say he was tired it said he rested maybe he just wanted to kick back have the Angel Gabriel round for a BBQ a few beers and to watch his new creation
But im asking why did he need 6 days to do it? He's all powerfull, so why were there stages to creation? Why not just make everything at one snap? Thats what doesnt make sense. Also, he used a unit of time that was invented by humans. Why was he bound by the 24hour cycle that he had yet to create? It doesnt add up.
Also, why does he reside in a domain he created? Where was he before creating heaven? Why isnt he there now? Why bother creating satan? What work does he do? Why are the things said that he does not happen anymore (miracles and other unexplainable acts)?
I don't know why your asking me all of theses question because I am not God. When you die and your face to face with God you can ask him those questions your asking me question like I should know this stuff but I don't because I wasn't there to see how God created the world and everything after that.
Hell already existed before the earth was created because Lucifer rebelled against God. Also I don't know what he was doing after He created the world.
It does not necessarily mean rest like what we do when we are tired. The Hebrew word, shabath, translated "rest" does not really refer to a requirement to sleep or take a break due to weariness. It means that God stopped and ceased to let his plans into motion.
You know the Pharisees in the Bible asked Jesus the same question.
Well they got answers, just not the ones they wanted to hear. They simply just couldn't understand a love so powerful that all the "good" works they ever did would never be enough to equal...
Is this an agreement or sarcasm? I just had an epiphany you're a hopeless cause as I once was. Thanx for the debate but you what I don't have to prove anything to you are anyone else! The day is drawing near and then it will be upon you and your decisions your beliefs just like it will be upon mine...Then we'll see who is right. If your right I'm no worse for wear any way this gives my life purpose yet if I'm right your side doesn't look so wonderful after all.
Translation to your post: I have no real response to your counter-statement, so I'm going to put on my arrogant-puffy-pants and parade around with my “You're hopeless” confetti and dance to the “I'm right, you're wrong” tune.
He gave Adam and Eve a specific tasks, that was not to eat from the fruit. He gave them both a choice to obey or disobey him. Adam and Eve were free to do anything they wanted, except eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Genesis 2:16-17, “And the LORD God commanded the man, ‘You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.’” If God had not given Adam and Eve the choice, they would have essentially been robots, simply doing what they were programmed to do. God created Adam and Eve to be “free” beings, able to make decisions, able to choose between good and evil. In order for Adam and Eve to truly be free, they had to have a choice.
But he KNEW they were going to pick what they did because he's all knowing. He knew about every horrible thing he would have to do from that point on to now at that exact moment. He knew they'd eat it. He knew he'd have to cause death and sorrow, flood the world, and send people to hell.
Did he stop it? No. Why even make a tree of knowledge? There's so many questions that cannot be answered because the whole scenario is all so stupid and poorly made up. key words: Made up.
It resembled the first sin, if he stopped it, they would not be considered free, God doesn't make you believe him, he lets you choose.Though God wants us to fix our sins, he lets you commit them over and over.
But were not free ANYWAY. Gods "plan" and all knowingness completely contradict free will. It seems like that had it but they didn't. God knew that eve would take the apple and also planned for it. This is irrefutable.
How can you make choices when you have no conscience and knowledge of good or bad? Take a kid that you have never once taught them anything bad, they have no concept that bad things exists, this includes never being hurt, never having an adverse reaction, not even a knowledge of death or to anything related. Tell this kid that you have created a tree, which if you eat from will take away your innocence and make you die, but it's your choice.
Is this fair? This kid has nothing but “good” events to compare this situation to.
Then let's include that you are all knowing and all powerful, you're the creator of all. That just makes things worse, but you have all the knowledge of the past, present and future, and all the power in existence to do anything you want, and make any rules you want.
Yes, but God said not to eat from the tree, you didn't incorporate that. We all start off innocent, free of sin. But then, later in life we sin like it's nothing, (in your case it wouldn't be anything.) Life isn't fair, God doesn't have to be fair, he may not reward you in your actual life, but surely in after-life.
Yes, the senario is fair. Adam and Eve were persuaded by the devil to eat the fruit, it was still their choice to follow him. God lets evil things reign over us for us to turn to him (still a choice.) One question though,you say you reject God because there is no evidence for him: he's invisible and mysterious. But you believe intrinsic moral values and intrinsic moral rights, for which there is no evidence, and which are also mysterious and invisible. I don't understand. Could you explain why you reject God but accept the existence of intrinsic moral values?
Yes, the senario is fair. Adam and Eve were persuaded by the devil to eat the fruit, it was still their choice to follow him.
Adam and Eve had no sense of bad, how do they know that listening to.the devil instead of God (thus eating the fruit) was wrong?
God lets evil things reign over us for us to turn to him (still a choice.)
Again, I refer back to my question; If a parent has the ability to stop their child from being raped but allows it to happen in order for their child to turn to them or to show it's wrong, is this fair?
One question though,you say you reject God because there is no evidence for him: he's invisible and mysterious.
Not my words at all. I reject the claim of most, if not all deities because of the lack of validation and lack of demonstrable evidence.
But you believe intrinsic moral values and intrinsic moral rights,
I don't believe I claimed that.
for which there is no evidence,and which are also mysterious and invisible. I don't understand.
You probably don't understand because you assigned labels to my rejection as part of my claim and then applied them to something else I have not given an opinion on.
Could you explain why you reject God but accept the existence of intrinsic moral values?
Only if first you ask whether I accept the existence of intrinsic morality.
Excuse me,but isn't that apart of atheist reasoning? Forgive me if I'm wrong. No one really has a sense of "bad" at first, the that's when we grow older. God told specifically told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit from the tree. You keep bringing up "fairness" are you an atheist because of bad experience? Many convicts are raped and physically harmed in other ways in prison, you see many of them establishing their own churches and services, many others don't ,and you're comparing god to a parent, if you've learned anything from theist you will have learned God isn't an average parent.
Excuse me,but isn't that apart of atheist reasoning? Forgive me if I'm wrong.
Is....what a part of atheist reasoning?
No one really has a sense of "bad" at first, the that's when we grow older.
Thanks for conceding to a point that only helps my argument.
God told specifically told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit from the tree. You keep bringing up "fairness"
I don't think you quite comprehend my scenario. I would love to apply my scenario to real life, but all real life examples that are mostly or completely unaware of human morality also have the barrier of no concise communication or comprehension. Like babies or animals.
This is why I made up a scenario that ages the human baby to understand human language but has the innocence of the infant who is literally, completely unaware of what is “bad”. If the child is completely unaware of bad, then how is it fair for God or a parent (who IS aware of good and bad) to expect this child to know the difference. It's like expecting a kid to know 5 x 20 when you've never taught them math.
are you an atheist because of bad experience?
No.
Many convicts are raped and physically harmed in other ways in prison, you see many of them establishing their own churches and services, many others don't ,
I don't see how this it's relevant to the question I asked you, concerning rape.
and you're comparing god to a parent, if you've learned anything from theist you will have learned God isn't an average parent.
Precisely. God has more opportunity than your average parent to change what he wills.
Lol thats the funny thing. The bible, torah, and Quran all say that black people have their skin color becuase they are evil. This is often overlooked. So lets add racist to the list of immoral things about the bible.
Give me one verse or passage that calls these people evil because of their skin color! The missionary Phillip had no problem talking to an Ethiopian and Paul traveled all over Rome to the people Jews hated most... The Bible doesn't say anywhere that a certain people is evil because of skin color! We are evil because of sin and sin alone.
The Mormon sect of Christianity says that god made people black because of their sin. It is part of the Christian religious title so it is included along with the bible in my opinion.
Why not? If you paint a picture of say a house you could just paint the house and leave out the paint, the windows, and the light...but you missed the art. The part that is all up your imagination it may not be needed or useful but why not?
Art is not meant to be a productive product. Now if someone were to build an ice cream machine with parts that USED to be needed to make ice cream but are now useless in the new machine except to viciously kill the machine, that would be stupid. And that's God and vestigial organs.
The reason why there is natural disasters and evil is because of us we put evil and sin into this world and caused all of this to happen.
Also if God got rid of evil would you and I be here today? Because if God took away everything that was evil we would be eliminated because we think evil thoughts and we have a potienal to do evil thus God would have to restart from the beginning again.
I think that even before humans lived there were natural disasters and who would have probabaly put evil and sin into this world and caused it to happen. The natural disasters are a result of the movement of earth and the processes taking place under the crust. Of some are totally due to global warming and consequences of our exploitation.
Sure you could say that evil is here to make us appreciate the good. However we are the cause and we make the choice constantly towards evil so we can't blame anyone but ourselves.
Not to make us appreciate... damn, but that is so centric. This universe is not all about us, we are but an infinitely small part of it. It's about balance, and stability- imagine an unstable universe... :(
What does evil make you see then? It makes most either look on it as since their evil they can do whatever they want many many others see it as they need to be good to make something of themselves.
Good is exalted and evil is put down.
Of course the universe is not all about us but God gave it to us to rule and do with as we pleased. How many Americans do you know that aren't constantly working for what they need and what they want?
If good could balance evil there wouldn't be an argument here...
I don't know any Americans, personally. If both were exalted, it would be out of balance, yes? And your religous statement is irrellevant without proof, as mine is also. But the people(multiple nationalities, mainly European, some African, some Aisian) I know all work to better themselves, and generally show off- but hey, we're all students. Evil is a beautiful thing when properly understood, and it is a rightful half to our world, yin to yang- according to my beliefs. Good and evil are unequal, yet balanced, we work for one- and the other will maintain itself, etcetera.
I am not even going to say that I can prove to you that I'm right because any argument I could possibly give you wouldn't hold up before your eyes. Perhaps evil does have a beauty in the fact that it kills, it steals, and it destroys. It enslaves whole nations! However it gives the doer exactly what they want at the moment...it gives them power, fame, and idolization.
What I have through Christ gives me peace and exactly what I need and want even when the world falls apart around me.
I hope you sleep well and at least think over your statement of evil being beautiful...
Everything has beauty to it, and the mix of good and evil makes decent reading, at least. If there was no evil in a storyline, there would be little to achieve, and the book would not be bought. And it is a factor, a balance, as I said~ it is.
I think yaweh is our bad guy, sorry- but open discrimination against sorceresses, even though I'm mainly arcane, is not appreciated. People have to progress sustainably.
Wouldn't you call that brainwashing...loss of self? The person is evil...you can't just take out its brain to solve your problems! History proves that.
Do you want Him to take out your brain and change the way you think the way you are? And as I said before man was not created evil...man made a choice deliberately to be that way.
And my all loving God came to die for that, to be tortured for that, to bring peace out of the caos for that; I know you don't believe how I do. I know you think I'm a know it all Bible thumper. I know that some of that perhaps is true!
You may believe I'm wrong and think what you will...we are in a free country.
I believe that if you accept the gift He freely handed you, you go to Heaven and if you don't you go to Hell. The fact is you have a choice! God didn't come in and take your brain out to change how you thought and how you were. He loved you in spite of your failure! I may be young innocent and dumb at times but to me that sounds like an unreasonable love.
What kind of God who could wipe out His enemies without a word tells His people to love them?
I don't mean love as in the feeling with butterflies and sweaty palms. I mean the real kind patient, kind, longsuffering, slow to anger, keeping no record of wrongs...
If I were you I would look at that God and wonder why after thousands of years against all odds He's still around loving the people who only return Him with hate.
exactly like you said they became evil, they were not created equal
and yes my God is the God who loves those that hate Him and curse Him. All the other gods just blast them...
When you love someone you can't just spoil them constantly that would ruin them so you have to punish them...besides its like what a teacher says about your grades you earn them he doesn't give them to you.
Easy humans are what we understand the Greeks, the Romans, the Egyptians, and many others use this tactic of using what they do understand to explain the Heavnly realms.
Well we rebelled against God and sinned so that is why there are diseases, death, suffering,and natural disasters that are now in place. It was our doing that caused all of this to happen not God.
My, what a forgiving and benevolent deity. It was our doing that caused all of this to happen not God. So, god was mad at our party-hard attitude and decided to kill everyone? After killing his own kid to show us he loved us. By the way, what is it with god and killing children? That really gets him off, it seems.
Well...look at Joseph. Without slavery he never would've been sent to Egypt, would never have been betrayed by his master's wife, never would of told the meaning of dreams, would've never become a man of power, and never prepared the land for famine. Thus thousands would've died!
Then its complete symbolism!!! Since the fall of man we really can't understand spiritual matters (thus all the questions) so God shows us in a way we can understand. Until you accept God's payment for you...you are a slave to sin. He allows slavery to show us just how bad that is and what that really means.
I guess so... my Mom was just explaining this to me the other day. There is a tissue inside of a woman that breaks when she has sex. and if you don't believe the Bible I suggest going to look up non-believing historians who say the same thing and connect with what was going on in the Bible at that time.
Not one sentence in your post has evidence to prove it's validity. Unless you're willing to concede that the hymen may break during sex instead of implicating that it is suppose to break during sexual intercourse.
Why not one day? Or a week? Or a month?Or two days? Or a year? Why was three the appropriate number of days that demonstrated he was actually dead? Why couldn't those numbers have been prophesied?
I would have been more impressed the longer he was dead, making it even more impossible to terminate his body.
Then why do some animals not put up a fight? Why do some submit?And why are we and to find methods which enable us to kill an animal without having to fight it?
Why was he bound by human ideas of time lengths (ie. Days)?
The Bible was written by humans therefore their time frame would most likely be days.
If its gods will whenever someone dies, why does he rely on natural processes to do his work (ie. cancer, bullets, ect).
God does things according to its nature. An example would be that a man cannot die of giving birth since it is impossible for him to defy the nature of the things he has created and the man has no ovaries. Another would be that God cannot create a triangle with four sides since that would already change the object into something different and would defy its existence.
Why after genesis is god suddenly incapable of poofing things into existence?
It does not necessarily say that God is not capable of doing so. The world was already complete and he acts through indirectly into things.
The Bible was written by humans therefore their time frame would most likely be days.
Exactly. What human couldve possibly known of the creation of the universe and world as we know it as described in the bible? None. Clearly made up.
God does things according to its nature.
Says where? Where was "nature" when he poofed the whole damn universe into sudden existence? And light? And life?
An example would be that a man cannot die of giving birth since it is impossible for him to defy the nature of the things he has created and the man has no ovaries. Another would be that God cannot create a triangle with four sides since that would already change the object into something different and would defy its existence.
What i mean is, everyone always says when someone dies that it is god's will. Well if it is his will, why cant he just poof the person dead on a whim? Why does he depend on diseases and other accidents to do it for him? Why did he need a shooter and bullets to take those 26 kid's lives? Why is he so dependent on the natural processes that he created spontaneously?
It does not necessarily say that God is not capable of doing so. The world was already complete
Until we somehow fucked up and he intervened to flood the earth. Then send his son to be sacrificed. and if you ask me, id say were worse now than back then. So why isnt he interveing anymore? Where is he?
It means that God created the Universe using the laws of Physics. So therefore that may be termed as the big bang theory. He was probably the catalyst.
"What i mean is, everyone always says when someone dies that it is god's will. Well if it is his will, why cant he just poof the person dead on a whim? Why does he depend on diseases and other accidents to do it for him? Why did he need a shooter and bullets to take those 26 kid's lives? Why is he so dependent on the natural processes that he created spontaneously?"
As I have said, he does things according to the nature of his creations. For an example, a person has to die of some cause so that he may be termed as dead. If not, then that would question the validity of the death of the being. He probably just chooses to act upon the nature of things for man to properly understand natural phenomena.
"Until we somehow fucked up and he intervened to flood the earth. Then send his son to be sacrificed. and if you ask me, id say were worse now than back then. So why isnt he interveing anymore? Where is he?"
He may not be present in our universe but he is intervening since phenomena out of human control happens. He also acts upon a different timeline from us. That proves that change or evolution does not happen overnight but through succeding periods of time.
Prove it. Prove your hypothetical cosmological explaination for god that not even the leading scientific minds who study advanced quantum physics even accept as a reasonable hypothesis. Stop trying to adapt your Bronze Age mythology to our modern day science. You don't see people trying to scientifically explain how Santa gets around the world to 7 billion people in one night. They let their little child imaginary story fade away like normal rational 21st century humans.
Religion does not depend on Science. Therefore it may seem so little to you but it means much to its followers. Call us fools if you want. I don`t care. Even if there is no way to prove it thus far. Its God`s principles that make us follow the religion. Religion on my perspective is not perfect but is a way to commune with one another and understand each other`s sufferings. Whether what deity we cling to may be true or false. It does not matter. Its how we interpret the message. I don`t need to find truth in everything that exists. I just want to enjoy life on how I find it to be. Like you, people judge you as someone different because of your beliefs. But you make the most what you see in life.
It does not necessarily mean rest like what we do when we are tired. The Hebrew word, shabath, translated "rest" does not really refer to a requirement to sleep or take a break due to weariness. It means that God stopped and ceased to let his plans into motion.
Why does he punish humans for doing what he knew they would do?
He has given man free will. In anyway whatsoever, depending on our choosing, he would know the results and he would then render judgement depending on the choice. Imagine you are a teacher, you know what to do and what will happen to him if a student passes the tests and fails it.
Where is god today, in a world where there are so many heathens?
The heaven meant by the Bible is a place out of reach and would only be travelled at in death. It does not necessarily pinpoint any location.
It does not necessarily mean rest like what we do when we are tired. The Hebrew word, shabath, translated "rest" does not really refer to a requirement to sleep or take a break due to weariness. It means that God stopped and ceased to let his plans into motion.
When he knew how everything was going to pan out since the beginning? He is all knowing after all.
He has given man free will. In anyway whatsoever, depending on our choosing, he would know the results and he would then render judgement depending on the choice. Imagine you are a teacher, you know what to do and what will happen to him if a student passes the tests and fails it.
He gives us free will supposedly, but somehow can manipulate other humans when someone prays for something that gets "answered". Ans free will to get punished for eternity. Great.
The heaven meant by the Bible is a place out of reach and would only be travelled at in death. It does not necessarily pinpoint any location.
HEATHens. Not heavens. This means sinners. Non believers. Evil doers. Murderers. Theifs. ect. ALL OVER the planet. Way more than there was in 2000 bumfuck BC when he flooded the planet. What, so he doesnt care anymore?
I'm sorry are you asking God why He doesn't zap you out of existence and punish you for all the wrongdoing you have done? God is merciful!
It was law that a woman caught in prostitution be stoned to death...they brought one of these before Jesus and asked what they should do with her.
"Whatever one of you is without sin throw the first stone." Why don't you care? Why don't you do something about it?
God certainly does care! I would also like to point out He promised never to flood the planet again. Then sent His only son to save us from ourselves and the eternal punishment our evil required. He refused to blast Ninevah of the planet because they realized their mistake and repented.
You like Jonah missed the point and are still waiting for fire and brimstone after forgiveness, mercy and compassion have already been offered.
Would you like to live forever? I have a recipe. It starts with you letting down your brick walls for a moment to see the other side. The side where someone does care what happens to you...a side where you know for sure the Truth is there.
Take a minute of silence, evaluate yourself, evaluate your life. Is something missing? So many people may look at you and judge you for who you are, what you look like, what you say, etc. (I have a problem with judging people. I do it all the time then I try to see them through God's eyes. Look at all the hurting and hopeless!) So many seek their whole life to fill that empty hole in their life never to discover what fills. My advice is not to take my advice or even your own die hard beliefs! Go search for what fills that hole with eyes and heart wide open, maybe you will find the answer...it is there waiting.
I'm asking why he CAN'T or DOESN'T instead of relying on natural processes to kill us, MANY of which are horribly painfull and just awful.
MERCIFUL?!? Are you kidding me? As he lets people starve to death in Africa, and people's body's and minds be destroyed by his horrible creations, animals and viruses. Only to potentially go to a fiery pit of death for ETERNITY to be tortured by demons all for the crime of not believing in him? Merciful my ass. He's fake but if he DID exist, I'd never worship such an evil, cruel, egomaniacal, jealous, ASSHOLE.
I don't get what you're trying to say with the prodtitution part...
Oh how lovely!! He won't flood it AGAIN. Because killing millions the first time he now realizes ain't cool.
And he's merciful? What a joke.
He sent a part of himself, inpregnated a virgin girl to be born as his son but also him, then sacrificed himself to himself. For what? Why was killing someone necessary? He couldn't just forgive us all by himself? Why does he always need blood? That isn't love.
He didn't kill that one person but he let satan torment job by killing his family. Then there's the bear story ad soddahm and gamora. He spared one person but murdered countless innocents.
I get that his morals are twisted and wrong, and that there is no evidence to believe in him be the bible so I don't. I won't be persuaded by pascals wadger. And if he DOES exist, I say fuck him. I will stare him in the eyes on my way to hell and curse him all the way because I know in my heart and mind IM better than HIM.
Finally you get it. So if this God does exist He created us and because He created us He demands our subservience...we didn't give Him that. There was a punishment for that a curse called death. That price had to be paid either by the wrong doer or by the one who set the rules in place.
Any mercy from a God who could destroy you with out blinking an eye is impressive.
Notice with Job that all though all those bad things happened to Him unlike you He never cursed God! Then in the end he was given everything back double fold.
If you call a town basically consisting of prostitutes, thieves, murderers, drugdealers, and drunkards is a town full of innocents then ok...
I have some people not even in the Bible that you should know... Mr. and Mrs. Wurmbrand of Romania. Mr. Wurmbrand was a hard set atheist for years. One day he walked into church and realized he had missed something and because he like you had studied what the Bible was to argue his side he realized without being told what it was. He became a christian. Shortly afterwards Russia took over and he was thrown into their prisons for his beliefs. Every time he would get out of jail after seeing things like; a thirteen year old boy being beaten to death by the wardons while calling out to his father never to deny who he was, Mr. Wurmbrand continued to go out and tell people about Jesus. Later on he had the chance to invite a wardon into his home who had been apart of his torturing and the man was saved. Then his wife who had been held in a Nazi concentration camp also brought one of those men into their home and he was saved.
If you're not going to believe in Him at least believe in His people they are capable of many things...
Finally you get it. So if this God does exist He created us and because He created us He demands our subservience...we didn't give Him that.
IF he exists. Which you have yet to supply even a shred of evidence for might i add. But yes, that appears the case. He demands our worship and subservience for whatever meager value it may hold to an omnicient, omnipotent creator of everything...
There was a punishment for that a curse called death. That price had to be paid either by the wrong doer or by the one who set the rules in place.
WTF? I dont get it. we die because we grow old and our bodily functions fail. Were biological natrual beings. That is why we die. Again, natural processes.
Any mercy from a God who could destroy you with out blinking an eye is impressive.
So you KNOW hes an asshole and still worship him?
Notice with Job that all though all those bad things happened to Him unlike you He never cursed God!
So he was a good boy and was tormented. And i curse god outright and i personally have a fantastic life. Food, shelter, water, education, and anything i could ever want. Your god is very inconsistent... Oh might i add that im a satanist? So shouldnt i be being tormented and killed? Hmmm...
Also, lets not forget african children who could be very religious and loving and subservient to god, yet they are tormented every day by hunger and the struggle to survive.. again, inconsistent.
Then in the end he was given everything back double fold.
WOAH WOAH WOAH. He was given a NEW family. That is FUCKED up. I dont know whats more fucked up, the fact that god had the BALLS to do that and think it was ok or that Job was HAPPY with it. It clearly shows god's blatant disreguard for human emotions and lives. I dunno about you but i dont want a NEW family, i want my WIFE and CHILDREN that i RAISED and LOVED back. That morality is so twisted its disgusting.
If you call a town basically consisting of prostitutes, thieves, murderers, drugdealers, and drunkards is a town full of innocents then ok...
No such a town would ever exist. This is completely unrealistic. You really think such a town could ever exist? Cmon. Plus, im sure there were children and other inoccents in the town should it have existed, but i guess, whats a few inoccents if you weed out the bad people right?
I have some people not even in the Bible that you should know... Mr. and Mrs. Wurmbrand of Romania. Mr. Wurmbrand was a hard set atheist for years. One day he walked into church and realized he had missed something and because he like you had studied what the Bible was to argue his side he realized without being told what it was. He became a christian. Shortly afterwards Russia took over and he was thrown into their prisons for his beliefs. Every time he would get out of jail after seeing things like; a thirteen year old boy being beaten to death by the wardons while calling out to his father never to deny who he was, Mr. Wurmbrand continued to go out and tell people about Jesus. Later on he had the chance to invite a wardon into his home who had been apart of his torturing and the man was saved. Then his wife who had been held in a Nazi concentration camp also brought one of those men into their home and he was saved.
OOH STORY TIME! This proves.....? Its a story, and probably exaggerted if true at all. And even if it was it only has the same thing as a "there are no atheists in foxholes" appeal. Under great duress the human mind sometimes clings to "feel good" thoughts to over come things. Well i dont NEED this "feel good" junk, and i never will because i know its not true.
None of this proves the existence of a god, and i can site a historical or biblical occurance of christianity causing death or pain for every "feel good" story you can come up with. It does more harm than good.
If you're not going to believe in Him at least believe in His people they are capable of many things...
Im not "capable" of believing in things without PROOF. Sometimes a mind that's too LOGICAL or INTELLEGENT does that. It rejects absurdities.
And Christian people are no more special than anyone else, in fact, i think theyre often LESS helpfull. Like that story, whatd they do? Spread the word of jesus/prayer. Wow, that did....what exactly?Itd be different if they made a shelter for concentration camp victims or gave food to the hungry. You know, ACTUALLY doing something.
THe same goes for the real world. Often, instead of actually taking action, christians think it is just as good to pray for people, when in reality that is about as helpfull as banging their heads against a wall. Unbelivers actually TAKE ACTION because that's all there is to do.
And lets look at some of the godliest people in the world, the catholics. Pedophile priests and the biggest scam crime mob on the EARTH. And a pope that runs the show. The whole think plays off the beliefs of the ignorant and makes them fund their crimes. Again, religion causes more harm than good. Always.
He knows every result no matter what choice we take.
One should not resonate on the concept of punishment alone. It was said to discourage a person from doing such evil to another person. Hell is for me is a state of being and not a physical place. When one commits evil, then one gains adversaries and through such adversaries, then hell shall be brought upon by them.
God is not bound by our time...Why do you think He could tell you what was going thousands of years afterwards + He created time.
Since when is a bullet natural? and He certainly doesn't rely on such means just remember the prophet who ascended into Heaven on a chariot of fire!
Who said He was suddenly incapable? Stars are still created, so are people, animals, plants, and other amazing things. Just because you are not looking for His creation doesn't mean it isn't there! You more examples? Jesus feeding the 5000 and turning water into wine!
I think the above items provided sufficient argument for "Why did He need to rest?"
Just because you know your little kid is going to raid the cookie jar doesn't mean they don't get in trouble when it happens.
God is everywhere...He said so Himself. Just because you don't see something doesn't mean it isn't true. Just ask Columbus who claimed the world was round in a time where everyone thought it was flat!
It's natural because it is not supernatural. Man created bullets and a gun from forged metals found naturally in the earth.
A combustion reaction propelled the bullet from the chamber of the weapon and into say a persons heart. The heart was damaged and unable to pump blood and the person died from the injury.
Everything was natural, down to the last process, element, and atom.
Um...no he doesnt. He orders many many many cites to be sacked and the inhabitants killed in the bible. He kills every first born in egypt. Kills a whole tribe of Baal worshipers. Floods the earth, and on and on and on.
In the bible It said god created the universe in DAYS. A time unit created by MAN. So why was he bound by it?
Who did he tell to write genesis into the bible? Who was told that information? Nobody. It was made up.
A bullet is natural because it is not supernatural. A guy pulling the trigger to fire a bullet into a person occurs naturally in our world. So do diseases and famine and everything else. So if it is gods will, doing, and plan to take any life at any time, who does he rely solely on these natural processes to do so? Why can't he just supernaturally defy physics like he did with the universe?
Ad that thing about the chariot is a story in a fairytale book. Nobody observed that. It's fake. I'm talking in the last 2000 years there are zero supernatural deaths/occurrences like those in the bible. Why did god all of a sudden stop doing things after the bible was published?
Stars are created naturally. Through natural processes we can EXPLAIN. Not by god. Same with everything else you said.
And anything you state from the bible is false. That is impossible and untrue and circular reasoning. The bible is a story book, not scientific proof.
No that doesn't satisfy why did he need to rest. He's all powerful. And he needed a nap? Bullshit.
That cookie jar thing made no sense to me.
And as far as Christopher Columbus 1) he wasn't the first to come up with the idea and 2) HE WAS ACTUALLY RIGHT. As in, the earth is ACTUALLY round and we can now actually physically SEE that to prove it. The people who were skeptics were right to be so because they had no proof! But we should automatically believe I god? No! We should be like the people who disbelieved Columbus and disbelieve I god until we have proof to change our minds. That's how logic and reason work.
Then if you study into Bible history you will find that the writer was Moses who was told these things with the entire nation of Israel to witness for it...
Why are you so afraid of death...you know to some people death isn't a bad thing because they know where there going when it ends and honestly they believe it is a lot better than this crummy place.
That story was witnessed you forget that Elisha the other prophet stood there watching it happen. And in the last 2000 years ok supernatural Jesus himself ascended into Heaven. Then Stephen the first martyr his death is supernatural! The Heavens open above him and he asks God to forgive the men that even then are stoning him then he dies...
Ok if we're going the evolutionist vs. creationist route I have a question of my own... what started all of that happening what created that energy way back when? No one in school knows and NASA has no answers that I could find so tell me please.
As for scientific proof that story book stated the world was round thousands of years before science, it also talks about dinosaurs, and other things that science has record of that that story book said before any archaeologists ever decided it would be fun to start digging them up...
When you were a kid there was always that one thing your parents always told you not to do for me it was a jar full of em & ems from many others I've talked to it was the cookie jar. Your parents always knew you were eventually going to get into that and that they would have to punish you for it but they still put it there.
He created the universe in steps. And not only steps, individual days. You cannot deny this. Why was he bound by a 24 hour solar cycle of a planet he had not yet created?
Also, if he isnt bound by time as you say that would make him outside of time. You cannot prove this as you are inside of time. Also it says nowhere in the bible that he is outside of time or unbound by it so therfore you are making that up. Anything out of time is illogical.
Then if you study into Bible history you will find that the writer was Moses who was told these things with the entire nation of Israel to witness for it...
Wow, Moses. You mean that guy that probably didnt exist? cool beans. And im pretty sure the entire nation didnt witness anything. And even if they did...wheres the proof? Did they write it down too? Where is it written? Did historians document it?
What? No? Its in the bible you say? Oh you mean that 2000 year old book that has been completely wrong about most everything that we actually know about history and is completely unreliable?
These are empty claims with nothing to back them up. It's also circular reasoning. Youre backing up biblical information with more biblical information.
Why are you so afraid of death...
Who said i was afraid? It's simply ceasing to exist. Its going back to what it's like before being born. Theres no feeling or mental consciousness. Nothing to be afraid of at my age either really.
you know to some people death isn't a bad thing because they know where there going when it ends and honestly they believe it is a lot better than this crummy place.
Because they have an illogical belief that makes them feel good but has no evidence to back it up. Whatever floats their boat
THIS CRUMMY PLACE? did you really just say that? This is the ONE life you get. And it's amazing! Think of all there is in the world. The amazing vast expanses of the unknown universe. All the knowledge out there to gain and explore! Google pictures of space and observe the amazing world around us. And dont explain it with god. look up how they REALLY formed, how they REALLY work. I guarentee what you will find and learn will be 200X more amazing than god. On the surface it may seem bland, but if youre willing to look, you can find mindblowing stuff under the surface. Even the little things, smelling a cinnamon bun in the oven, kissing the woman (or man) you love, laughing, crying, even feeling the keys under your fingers when you type. Someday, that all goes away. Poof. No more seeing. no more touching. So get all you can from this incredibly lucky opportunity to live as you can. Life for now. Not what comes after death. I think theres a video you should watch. It's really inspirational and i think youd like it. It just shows you the beauty of the world and opens you up to it. Ill get the link.
That story was witnessed you forget that Elisha the other prophet stood there watching it happen. And in the last 2000 years ok supernatural Jesus himself ascended into Heaven. Then Stephen the first martyr his death is supernatural! The Heavens open above him and he asks God to forgive the men that even then are stoning him then he dies...
More bible stories prove nothing. These claims must be backed up with accounts OUTside of the bible for them to be taken seriously.
Ok if we're going the evolutionist vs. creationist route I have a question of my own... what started all of that happening what created that energy way back when? No one in school knows and NASA has no answers that I could find so tell me please.
Well first off that isnt an evolution question, thats a big bang question. And first the theory said a point of singularity always existed (singularity being all the matter and light in the infinite universe being condensed into an infinately small point). That has been since changed because they have applied quantum physics to it. Now what we have is two things, something with like anti-matter/matter reactions which i dont have any information on, and then theres quantum graphity which is like the whole universe has always existed as anti/dark matter and then "froze" which was sudden conversion to matter in which the universe expanded like a great "freeze". Both do have pretty good evidence backing them up. The Big Bang in general does. Im no expert though. Other theories may exist that i am unaware of reguarding what came before.
And also i might add that even if we cannot say right now what created the universe, or our theories get disputed. Those will be replaced by more SCIENCE. We'll come up with new theories as new technology and knowledge are gained over time. We will never just throw up our hands and say "well fellas we gave it a shot, looks like god did it". No. God is a non answer. It is accepting to not understand something. Also, creationism has been thoroughly disputed 100fold and is a joke to pretty much every scientist since 1850 when it was droped from science as a theory. So yeah. Creation will never win. sorry.
As for scientific proof that story book stated the world was round thousands of years before science,
Actually that was the greek philosopher and mathematician Pythagoras in the 6th century BC.
And science has always existed ever since man could think. And actually many pages say otherwise refering to the earth as having ends and corners.
it also talks about dinosaurs, and other things that science has record of that that story book said before any archaeologists ever decided it would be fun to start digging them up...
It uses the word "Dragon" as dinosaur had not been invented. This could have possibly been taken from other cultures mythology. Also, back in the time of the bible the fossils were closer to the upper strata and may have been found accidentally by people during earthquakes and so on. Or, as most think, theyre referring to other very large animals as the bible also says behemoth. Never directly dinosaur, which is in itself a very broad label. And might i add it also says that humans and dinosaurs lived together...this is completely off by a few million years.
When you were a kid there was always that one thing your parents always told you not to do for me it was a jar full of em & ems from many others I've talked to it was the cookie jar. Your parents always knew you were eventually going to get into that and that they would have to punish you for it but they still put it there.
I didnt get punished because i either didnt get caught or to may parents, a cookie wasnt a big deal. To god these "cookies" are sins. Whether it's murder or simple things like just not believing in him. These things should NOT be deserving of the "punishment" god has in mind. From parents it may be a talking to, or in worse cases a spanking, not god. No he sends to to an inferno to be tormented for eternity. For a pretty damn small meager cookie. They are not equal crimes and punishments at ALL. And if he KNOWS that he's gonna send people to hell, then WHY even put the cookies out there? That is cruel. That is evil and malicious.
What kind of proof do you want from this God?
You say that as if it's an unrealistic desire. If it is asserted that a divine creator of the universe exists that governs my every action and life then i say prove it! If this god wants me to bend over and kiss his ass, then he can do better then leaving very poor evidence behind that also may have natural explainations for it. He did a piss poor job of letting people know. I want him to do what he did in the bible. Miracles for all to see. If he wants worship it seems pretty apparent that the easiest way to get it is to just show up...
This is only unrealistic to you if you know your god cant do it. That he doesnt exist to do so.
And if god himself cant prove it, then i guess that burden of proof falls on the people who say he's real. So hop to it. It's up to you to prove to ME he exists. Dont act like im the wierd one.
Heres the link to that video by the way, please watch it, i think youll like it:
Evil is the absence of good. Therefore it reflects upon the absence of God. He also did something to prevent it. It was the sacrifice of his son to save humanity and the 10 commandments.
But it is still something that exists. Therfore god made it.
It was the sacrifice of his son to save humanity and the 10 commandments.
So sacrificing someone is good to you? Okay.
Also that apparently didnt do anything because evil still exists very much today. In fact probably even more than it did before his supposed sacrifice.
And the commandments are useless common knowledge to everyone and one of them is a massive ego-trip from god. Theyre pointless. also just because someone makes a rule doesnt automatically make people conform to it. IE: people who break the law.
1) What about the other planets? I never remember reading about Saturn or Mars or even Neptune. Just the Sun and Earth. Like who created those?
2) Why are humans evil if he wanted perfection? Never understood that.
3) Why don't you stop cruel things like rape, murder, etc.
4) If you knew Adam and Even would screw us over why didn't you just make more humans or start time back over? Do something then just let us "sin" or whatever.
5) If we are of his image then why am I not perfect or at least like close to absolute good?
6) Why do nice people who never do wrong and just never had the opportunity to know god go straight to hell?
7) Why don't you split the sea or cause a plague upon America to show us that you exist?
8) If you exist then why does the big bang theory just make more sense? It is a theory. That's sad. Gravity makes more sense.
9) Why does the bible refer to earth as being 6000......well I guess 6013 years old? Like every bit of science proves other wise.
10) I am gonna stop before I get struck by lightning or something.
This debate is very weighted. Even believers of the Bible have questions. To say that Bible tells us everything we need to know is absolutely silly. Many people will spends month pondering a phrase the appeals to them.
Those who are unsatisfied with the information provided by the Bible are generally looking to it for the wrong sort of answers. It's not intended to be a scientific text; it's a book of mythology. And that isn't to say everything in it is explicitly false, but that it's meant to have more symbolic resonance than chemistry class utility. Christians who subscribe to the extreme Biblical literalism espoused by absolutely everybody on the opposing side of this debate so far are few and far between, and the r/atheism denizens as well as the born-agains are disregarding the corpus of Christian theology and clerical understanding of scripture when they treat God like a genie or Santa Claus.
