You sound a little conflicted, as any logical person trying to believe this garbage would be. I'm going to look at the bible logically like you said and pose a question: If Jesus died for my sins, why does it matter what I do or think? Logically, either my sins are paid for, or they are not. If Christ really did die for my sins, I'm going to sin. It would be a shame to waste already-paid-for sins right?

The typical christian belief is that if you don't accept Jesus as your saviour, you are not saved, and therefore will go to hell.

I don't believe this - I think it would be rediculous to sacrifice your own son, just so 1/3 of the world can be saved.

I believe Jesus saved EVERYONE, not just the people who will believe, but all sins that were made and were yet to make.

So I believe that you will see me in Heaven, although you don't believe.

I do believe you have a choice though, I don't think God will force people to be with him. I believe you will have the choice of living with him for all eternity, or just delete your existence. I don't believe in any place called Hell.

The bible sais that Jesus defeated Satan on the cross - if that is so, then satan is dead.

Hahaha .. yeah I'm not a muslim.

I don't know how that got there, sorry about that.

I'm agnostic theist .. I think I mentioned it before.

I know the feeling very well. Church use to feel like a safe place for me too. Unfortunately, what you are finding comfort in is not god.

I get that you don't believe so, but I do.

I don't have evidence or .. yeah I don't have any proof what so ever that my religion is real - all the evidence I've got are, that I feel and believe.

I know it sounds ridiculous. But I am not hurting people with my faith.

You can say that christians have killed millions through the years, and christians are the ones who cause all wars and stuff.

But those people aren't me .. I haven't killed or started war, I can't take responsibility for people, just because they believe the same as I do.

Carbon dating can scientifically prove, for a fact, that the earth is at least many million years old

Yeah, I also believe it is.

What I think is, that a 'year' in the bible time is supposedly not 365 days. Because they hadn't equipments to find out how long it took the earth to circle the sun - in 1400 they still thought the sun was traveling around the earth.

So I believe, that what the bible says is a year or a week .. a month or even a day or an hour, could be much, much more than what we call a year, month, week or day.

If Christ really did die for my sins, I'm going to sin. It would be a shame to waste already-paid-for sins right?

Yes I do believe that your sins are already paid for. I also believe you can do whatever you want, you will still get into Heaven.

But it's just about how I feel. I mean .. when I steal and lie and do other sins, I feel terrible.

So if you can go around doing these things, with your conscience up top .. then it's okay. But personally for me, I don't wanna do that.

So, what happened to the second argument a few posts up because I'd like to know too, Birgitsiv. How has god influenced your life?

in so many ways, many ways I can't explain. So many ways that it would take me forever to tell you everything.

It is almost impossible to really tell you, because .. yeah it just is.

But I will try of course.

When I feel down, when I feel sad .. I turn to God and everything just .. brightens up a bit.

I've prayed several times, and I've often tried to get what I prayed for.

When I am in church I feel so safe, I feel God beside me - not just in church of course. Everywhere.

I just feel so safe and happy whenever I read the bible or am in a meeting in church or something.

I see no evidence of 'god' interacting with his creation at all.

I get your point .. but seriously. Try to look logically at the bible, even though there isn't much logic in it .. but do it anyway.

The bible tells us God is all powerful right ? So if he were all powerful, he would also be able to delete all tracks from him creating the world, wouldn't he ?

Or he would be able to simply not leave tracks behind him.

But then you could ask why he would do that, and I don't know the answer to this. I believe he has a reason, whatever it is.

How and why does he do so?

I don't know. I'm not God, I can't answer for him. All I know is, that he does.

Many believers are not 'blessed' though. Why is that so?

When you say blessed, do you mean like .. saved ?

Because that isn't true. The bible says (john 3,16) That if you believe you are saved, no matter what.

But some people are in church every sunday, they pray and they read the bible, they do everything a christian does - but what they don't do is believing. They are not saved. If you don't believe, you're not saved.

But I don't believe that really. I believe everyone is saved, no matter if you believe or not.

Because when Jesus died on the cross, he yelled 'it's done' (or something like that .. my bible isn't english, so I don't know what the english words are)

What was done ? Saving 1/3 of the world ? What kind of celebration is that?

I believe that he saved everyone on that cross.

I only read the first line, so that is the only one I'm gonna reply to.

Sorry, but I can guess what stands in the other lines - I've heard it all of it before, so don't think you're gonna change any of my views on the bible or God.

Yes, it is certainly likely that the other part is a metaphor. In fact, there is a huge enormous chance, that everything written in the bible is fake. That chance is huge.

But that is just how I chose to live my life. That is how I want to live my life, that is what I believe.

I am not harming anybody with my belief.

Not even homosexuals - because I support gay marriage.

When somebody can show me a real reason why I shouldn't believe, I will without a doubt take it seriously.

But at this point, I am not harming anybody.

You can throw stuff like 'religion is causing war' in my face. But personally I never started a war. Personally I am not the people who are against two people of the same gender getting married.

I can't help what other people who believe the same as I do, do. I can only answer for me, not christianity in general.

Then I my searching wasn't so good :p.............

I think putting my country as danish is kind of an habbit, because many sites just ignore us xx8

I have no problem in helping other people.

What I don't like is to be FORCED to help people. Because the government litteraly takes the money without asking me.

Also, I want to help people.

I want to help old people that need chairs and meds and whatever, and I also want to help poor people that don't have a house or food. I have nothing against helping retarded people who need special equipment to make their daily life easier.

What do you mean about I don't understand taxes?

I know exactly how much I pay to the government every month.

What I really don't like, is to help people, who put themselves in the crap they're in.

Most people (I am aware, that old people who're like .. 90 they didn't know the consequenses about cigarrettes and stuff ) most people who smoke, know before they do, that this can harm your body.

So why should I help them? They put themselves in the crap, I don't want to have anything to do with it. They can pay the consequence that they were risking.

And what do you mean I don't understand taxes?

I know exactly what I pay to the government each month.

Well, this is just another insident of how americans think they're the only people living on earth, and how their politics rule the world.

I hate to break this to you, but I don't live in the states. In my country the taxes are 30% for me, higher for some, lower for some - depends on how much you earn.

If you did look at my profile, which says I am danish (i think), then you're not so bad after all.

I am not danish, my country does not exist in the country list in CD.. so I just had to pick Denmark. Our tax system is not the same as in Denmark.

Because to eliminate tax as we know it, is something that is NEVER going to happen. There are to many people who disagree with me.

Therefor, I just have to try and illegalize drugs, since the other thing is impossible.

Because I believe that the bible speaks in metaphors........

1)

I think you are not reading my replies propertly. I said I am agnostic theist - that means I believe everything is possible, BUT what I feel strongest about is christianity. Therefore I am not arrogant.

2) I don't think I am 'claiming' that the bible is the aboslute truth. If I did make you think so I am very sorry.

I believe the bible - if it's the truth, time will tell.

Why do you think that is?

I think one of the main reasons is that now you can chose what you believe. You don't have to go very longer than 100 years back in time, where people who didn't believe in any God were killed.

Still this happens today in islamic countries.

Just so you know, women don't shit blood. If she's shitting blood, it's hemorrhoids or some other dire medical condition. The blood each month comes from a completely different channel.

It comes from the ass, and you're a male - I don't think your argument is valid here, since you've never tried it.

When you say that the average woman gives birth to three children, that statistic is really so 1950s. According to the 2000 census, the average number of children is actually .9. So, you can see a lot of women aren't having children at all. So, if she's still using the Mama excuse for not getting ahead in the workplace, it's pathetic.

I looked up some statics, and it says that the average american family has 2 children. Where I live, the average family has 3-4 children.

In amish cultures the average children births are 7 :O) amazing right? :p

It's not pathetic to use mama excuse to not work if you ACTUALLY have children.

As you say, in a typical relationship the woman is most likely to stop her career and stay home with the kids. That's because it's socially acceptable for her to do so.

I know, what's your point?

When you're a woman, it's perfectly acceptable to be without a job at any point during your life. No one looks at you like you're a loser. If you're a man, even if you have plenty of money, women look down on you if you don't work.

That was kind of the point I was trying to make. I think it is pathetic. If I had a child, I would HAVE to stop working, just so my husband could keep his reputation. That is just wrong. Women should be able to go to work, while men stayed home, it isn't fair, that we always have to just stop our lives completely, while you live life.

I think most women look absolutely ridiculous the way they fix themselves up like whores.

We're not talking abot high school girls. Or i'm not.

Nor do I think smearing thick black shit around her eyes makes her look alluring. It makes her look like a clown.

How old are you? Have you seen women today? Little girls do that, not women.

1) Why are atheists so arrogant to believe there is no God up there?

Besides, I am a little agnostic, so I believe everything is possible. That doesn't make me arrogant does it?

3) If you aren't interested in reading it, why are you interested in debating abou tit?

Yeah, you would call me crazy, but frankly I don't care. I share this with 1/3 of the world population you know? This isn't something I made up. I have friends who say the same, they talk to God and God talks to us.

If you look at it healthy wise, then yes it is.

Very few people eat during sleep, so we sleep for 8 hours without any food. Also doctors recommend that you don't eat right before sleep, we should eat 3 hours before we go to sleep.

That means 8-10 or more hours without food, and that is a lot. Your body has at that point no energy left from the food to burn.

Therefore it is wise to eat a big healthy breakfast, that would keep us going for at least 6 hours, of course with a good snack after 3 hours or so.

It's really healthy to eat big meals at certain points of the day, together with three snacks.

If you chose 6 points of the day where you eat, and then you never eat other times, then I promise you, you will lose some pounds. But then you have to remember to eat healthy, not small portions but healthy.

Eat at 7 am and then 12 and 6 pm. Eat your snacks at 10 am and 3 and 9 pm.

Eat no other time of the day, of course you can decide what time you eat yourself, but just stick with it :p

That is valid for all people, people who want to lose AND people who want to put on weight, and also people who are satisfied with themselves, and just want to be healthy.

I don't eat much of it anymore, you know because of all the bad chemicals they've found in them.

But they taste like .. it's like a beaf. It's really dark meat.. or I don't know.

Some boil it and some fry it. We eat it with potatoes and the fat of the whale you know? it has a layer of fat first, then there's meat.

1) I didn't mean a particular God. Either there is a God or there is not.

3) The bible is kind of what christianity is. If you want your arguments to be valid in such a debate, I recommend you read it.

The bible is a book written by Humans, inspired by God. Human beings aren't perfect, we all make mistakes. There were hundreds if not thousands who participated in writing the bible - and then there were those who translated it. That's why I rely on what God tells directly to me, and not what I read in the bible.

4) I agree with you here, if I told the people in my church, that I don't believe in any place called Hell .. they would probably kind of shocked since that's the thing we learn about there.

Hehe, it's okay :p

I'd rather have an ugly nickname than no nickname :o)

1) actually it's fifty fifty, either there is or there is no God.

2) I didn't say I didn't work for my success. But still I have a LOT to thank for. You said so yourself, you see tortured people everywhere, don't you think you are lucky?

Don't you think you have a lot to be thankful for? I don't mean thankful to God but ..

3) Well I am not gonna ask you to read it, although I think it is kind of silly, when people start debating with me about christianity, when they haven't read the bible.

What if I started to debate about Harry Potter books, even though I never read them? That would just be silly and pointless.

My point there was, that the bible doesn't ONLY carry errors or fairy tales. It has actually some wise words.

I know that the bible has errors, I don't believe the bible though, I believe in God.

4)

Define christian: A person who believe in Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit.

Whether I believe there is a Hell or not, or whether I am baptized or not doesn't matter.

I don't care very much about if other christian think I'm not one, they can call me what they want.

If you don't believe exactly what others believe you are an outcast.

What point are you trying to make?

Aren't we all outcasts when it comes to religion? I mean, we all have our personal point of views.

OH MY GOD, not you tooo!??!?!?! why is everyone calling me Birggy? It's ugly :o)

yes...................................................................

None, I don't have a perfect body, but I watch what I eat.

The second and the third one maybe.

1) I believe there that the Christian God is the only God, but I am a little agnostic, I believe everything is possible.

2) I know I know, I guess what I meant is when we get to Heaven it was worth it or something. I'm not sure what I meant to say. If there is no Heaven? Then there is no Heaven, as I said everything is possible.

You have clothes on your body, a full stomach and a roof over your head because YOU went out and worked to earn money to buy those things. At no point did "god" have any influence on this situation.

Wow you're such a genius. Why aren't all the people in the world just working to get out of their starvation and torture? Why don't we all just go to work?

I could easily be born in some part of the world, where I would have to struggle for .. a zip of water.

God blessed me with a job, so I could earn money.

3) I am aware of that, but still. The bible holds a lot of wise words, that no matter if you're Christian or not you should follow. Like loving your neighbor and stuff, you know what I'm talking about right?

What others believe, or what religion does to the world I cannot change. I can only change what I do, and I am not trying to hurt anybody on purpose. I've never participated in any wars..

5) I am from the Faroe Islands, it's in Europe :) And I do agree with you on the money and the national song thing. I think it is stupid to chose a religion for a country. People should be able to decide for themselves whether they want to believe or not.

Btw. about the 5 billion people who are going to hell, I just wanted to comment that I don't believe in any place called Hell.

Where I go to church, we baptize people when they're adults. They chose for themselves, if someone wants to be baptized they go to the priest, and they will. I was never forced to anything, maybe except Sunday school as a kid, but I think that was good for me if you look at it socially. There were a lot of children there, and that's kind of where I got my first friends and stuff, so even though I didn't believe today, I would never wish my parents didn't send me to Sunday school.

1) Yeah I get that a lot. There are suggestions? What does that mean? Atheists I've debated with asked me to give them a logical reason why I believe in God. But all they can come up with are suggestions. I don't see why I should disbelieve something just because some guy suggested it.

2) I have clothes on my body, my stomach is full and a roof over my head. Unlike millions if not billions of people, I have those three blessings. I know what you're gonna ask next - why does he give me these things but not them? We don't all get the same, but we all get to Heaven, and no matter how terrible our lives were on earth, we will not think about it when we get to Heaven.

3) What makes you think I don't live my life as I want to? I want to be a good person. There is nothing bad with believing. I am not hurting anybody with my belief. No one is forcing me to believe, I chose it myself.

And to be 100% honest, I would rather believe in God and find out there wasn't any, than not believe in God and find out he actually existed.

4) Lol. When is the last time atheism affected my life? I am attacked by questions of all the atheist I know, they all try their hardest to get me to realize there is no God. And you say, that you have a better life? I don't see a good life with trying to get others to believe the same, that is what I call crazy obsession, not living life.

I'm not saying you do this. But I don't go around trying to convince people to believe, I don't ask people to come to church with me, because I know they are just as annoyed to be invited to church, as I am when they ask me questions about why I believe.

Why should something that can't be proven be forced into my every day life?

Why should something that can't be proven be forced into MY every day life? as I just told you, several atheist are obsessed about trying to make all christians nonbelievers.

You're belief can't be proven, my belief can't be proven, shall we live in peace together?

Why can I only pick between no and this?

I think yes, I don't we're seduced by sex.

I think sex is necessary for a lot of reasons. Reproduction and stimulation of a relationship. It brings you and your partner closer together on another level.

A couple without sex doesn't know each other as well as an asexual couple.

Isn't it kinda weird to think all of this was created by a magic man living in the clouds?

From my point of view, believing everything comes from nothing is really magical too.

Where exactly do you see god? What does he look like?

I don't see God, I see how he does amazing things for me and others.

Sorry but I fail to see how believing in god makes it any less weird.

I didn't say it was less weird to believe in God, I know it is crazy.

But living your entire life based off something that can never be proven is a totally insane idea to me.

What can be proven? Atheism can't be proven either, so if you chose to go that way, you're still believing something that could be a lie.

WE, as in the house I live in does not have grass on the roof :)

Are you asking for logical evidence, or do you want to know what make me believe?

If it's the first one, I don't have any logical proof of my belief.

Is it the second one? What makes me believe is, that I see God everywhere. I think it is .. really ridiculous (not to offend anybody in any way) but I think it is kinda weird to think all this came from nothing.

They are doing it now, that is why I say, that not only religion cause war

If there is no need to fight people will not fight. The less reasons to fight the less fights.

There will be needs to fight. Are you seriously THAT naiv to think, that the only thing bad with this world is religion?

I mean I get what you say, religion is not doing very much good for the world, but neither is a bunch of other stuff.

No I wouldn't.

I would never erase happy memories, who wants to erase those? I mean, I understand if happy memories of loved ones, who passed away are painful to remember, but still - it is worth remembering right? I mean, I am happy that I remember my grandfather for instance, and although it hurts when something reminds me of him, I would never trade my memories of him for all the money in the world.

Just like happy memories, I wouldn't erase bad memories either.

If you do something stupid or dumb .. or yeah anything, you learn from it. You learn from the mistakes you make - but if you forget them, you just did something really bad/embarrassing/painful that you will never learn anything from. With other words, you did something stupid and you will probably do it again since you can't remember what mistake you made.

So, if you want something but don't have the money for it, or it is not yours in the first place, you will try to take it with force?

That depends on what you mean. Do you mean material things - then probably no, some people will though.

But for things like freedom and stuff, those things you will fight fore.

Yeah whatever.

a world without war is a fantasy. There is never going to be a world without war because human beings fight. it's in our nature to fight for things we want.

I know lots of people who lost relatives or loved ones, I know christian africans, who are worshipping God, even tho they live in a place where there is war.

I know homeless kids who all go to church every sunday.

I wouldn't say only succesful people are christian.

Christians .. or all people for that matter, should give to those who are in need.

I bet you're not in need, since you're obviously on a computer?

Fighting is not necessary, not with humans, not anymore.

It is not necessary, that's right. But we still do it.

But you know how the people in Islamic countries, they fight for freedom. To get to believe what they think is the truth, that is the biggest problem there.

In my country people are fighting to get lower taxes, because they're so ridiculously high were I live. That is the biggest problem here.

Some countries are fighting for homosexuals, to let people marry whomever they want to, no matter what gender he or she is - because somewhere THAT is the biggest problem.

People fight about things, when they win, they fight about the next problem.

All right, I suppose I kinda lost it there. I apologize for calling you a fuckface. I'll explain myself to you, but in a PM. It's kinda private.

It's okay. Let's just say we have a difference of opinion

Human beings are human beings. We fight, if not about religion, then about something else.

Religion is the biggest problem in the world, that is why we fight. If religion wasn't the biggest problem in the world, then we would fight about what was the biggest problem.

People fight, usually we prioritize the biggest problem to fight first, when that is solved, we move to the next one.

You talk like you're 100% sure.

You don't know a world without religion, because you've never seen it.

I never said all abortions were caused by rape.

And if you think my argument is so stupid and redicoulos, why are you even disputing me? Why not ignore what I said.

The debate is: Abortion is a selfish action to alleviate an undesirable consequence.

To this I answered false, because some abortions are caused by rape and other reasonable reasons.

How big or small the percentage is doesn't matter, abortions caused by rape is still existing - just like black murderers.

I seriously don't think you should use your time on debating.

You don't respect others opinions at all, and you call people who disagree with you fuckfaces. Even RandomDude is more mature than you are.

I don't know which side to be on, so I'm picking a random one.

I don't think there is any reasonable proof of christianity neither do I think no one should believe it, because it is my personal belief too.

It can't be .. explained really why a person believes something. I believe in God because he has given me proof of, that he exists.

Although those 'evidence' are enough for me to keep believing, it probably isn't for a lot of people.

I'm saying no, because I don't need it.

I have a great job, I earn lots of money.

Because you have nothing else to do?

or probably you think we're stupid.

Dude, I think grammar nazis are out of fashion.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why is that relevant?

That's a number, I didn't try to encourage raped pregnant women to get abortions.

I was trying to save them from a punishment, they might not want. Some women would want the baby conceived during rape - that is fully understandable, and they should do so.

But seriously, I respect women 100% that make the other decission too. And it disgusts me to see a person like you, vomit over raped women. You are a horrible person.

Wait wait wait, your saying there is no evidence of a fetus growing in a women's belly and turning into a child?

Well yes, if you disagree, please give me an evidence. So far you've only insulted my arguments, instead of disputing them with real facts.

Give me an evidence, of a woman, who is currently 5 weeks pregnant, and give me a logical evidence of, that the fetus in her tummy is going to take human form someday.

That fetuses turn into human beings is a well known fact is untrue, it is not a fact, it is how things naturally are. I know several episodes where the fetus didn't get to the human stage, therefore it isn't a fact, that they turn in to human beings.

A senior is a human, an adult is a human, a teen is a human, a child is a human, a baby is a human and a fetus is a human.

Have you looked the word 'human' up?

Well, I just did. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/human

If you look at number 4. it says: having the form of a human. Fetuses do not have these. Neither do they have other typical distinctive features of human like ability to feel love, anger or hate.

I said its used for other reasons by us but sex's only real reason is to have kids.

I know, you've said that like a hundred times. You must have a sad life.

No, scientists say its not conscious thus its not alive witch is a stupid conclusion to come to. There is no evidence that says its not alive.

there is no evidence proving its ever going to be human either.

So your saying that because the fetus might be aborted or it might die there is no proof it will ever grow? ...wow

The high risk of spontaneous abortion is not an evidence of, that it will grow or not. I don't recall saying that, but I don't remember, if I said so, I apologize, because that was not what I meant.

My point with saying that is, that because there ARE so many spontaneous abortions all around the world - that is a proof of, that not all fetuses turn into human beings, I just proved you wrong when you claimed, that a fetus turns into human is a well known fact.

It is a natural process, not a fact.

So since its at risk for not survivng its not alive?

why do you keep saying it's not alive all the time? I don't recall saying fetuses aren't alive. I'm saying they aren't human.

So your saying that since a fetus can die its not alive?

Again, when did I claim that fetuses are not alive? I'm saying they are not human.

A fly is alive, it doesn't mean it has human rights just because of that.

Fetuses do have human features

Monkeys also have human features, doesn't mean they're human, neither does it give them human rights.

Correction: A fetus is a child that has not been born yet.

Do you have evidence of that? Do you have any evidence of, that all the fetuses currently growing in woman's bellies are ever going to be a child? Science doesn't, so I doubt you have.

I'm not punishing them, I'm telling them not to kill the fetus, its a child and its done nothing so it too has a right to life.

No it is a fetus, a fetus doesn't have human rights, because it isn't a human. It is a fetus.

You just said its a human so it has a right to life no matter what you call it.

Do you have evidence of that it is a human? So far science can't prove to you that a fetus is ever going to take human form. That is just what we think, because that is normal right? But there isn't any evidence of, that the tiny meatball we see in a belly is ever going to take human form. You can't give something human rights, because 'you think' it is a human. It isn't. Science won't tell you it is.

Again your misinterpreting what I'm saying, sex was made for mainly reprodcution, but we can use it for other things, we all do. Again, if you have sex remember its purpose is to make kids so you need to take steps to not have a kid.

Misinterpreting? you said the only reason, I can't know when your choice of words is good or bad.

Explain how a fetus is not a human

Listen to science. Science tells you, that a a fetus is a bunch of cells. When it is under 12 weeks old, it has no human form, and there is no evidence that it is ever going to be human. For all we know, it is just a meatball.

Its about abortion

the debate we two are debating right now is rape. We haven't debated any other subjects in abortion yet.

No, scientists say "it is not fully conscious until 12 weeks thus it is not human until weeks" that is not proof that its not alive or human.

Science says, that there is no evidence of, that a 11 weeks old fetus is ever going to take human form.

I'm sorry but thats just stupid, I have no proof it will become a human someday? Well so far all babies born have been human,

LOL!

Are you aware of how high the risk of spontaneous abortion is? Especially in the first trimester? I guess not, men usually aren't aware of this.

You know how women keep their pregnancy a secret for as long as they can? It's because, that the risk of loosing the baby in the first trimester is soo big, that telling everybody right away is just going to make a spontaneous abortion .. more painful, if they get one.

very many women who have children, that I know, have had one or two spontaneous abortion.

Don't tell me that every fetus is going to be a human, because that is a lie. It isn't, there is a chance it will be, but there is also a chance that a fly will take human form.

I know a woman who've gone through 9 spontaneous abortions. Several women in my family have gone through some too, and since it runs in my family, I'm probably gonna experience it too someday.

Well you certainly should be.

why?

Wow...I'd say I'm surprised but I'm really not. So you're saying that people who don't want a baby stupid enough to have unprotected sex are on an equal playing field with those who properly applied protection which failed? That's ludicrous and you really should know better.

Yes that is kind of what I'm saying.

I think its unrelative how the fetus got there, if it's unwanted, then it is unwanted.

You left out a few important details there buddy. With the killing of a 3-month old with an axe you have no baby. But its the same result! Yippee!

What point are you trying to make here?

first of all, yes you end up with the same result.

second of all, with condoms you don't conceive anything - no baby

with abortion you remove a fetus - no baby

you kill a fetus, and you have to know the difference between fetus and child/human/kid before we go on. You don't kill a baby, you kill a mass of cells.

How can you say this? So you think every abortion is done because of rape/danger to mother/failed protection? That's definitely not true.

No, what I said was simply, that most people know what sex can cause.

But they will still want to have sex, so unless you have a magical way, where there is no possibility of conceiving, then there is little you can do about stopping abortion.

What? You're missing the point...if no contraceptive is 100% effective, people should know there is still a minuscule chance they are going to have a baby. Therefore, abortion in this scenario should never have to be done.

Well, that is like saying that there is a chance you will end up in a car crash, so you should know that before you enter a car.

People know both of those, they do it anyway. So what can we do? Make the car more protective, and make the sexual protectives more protective.

Telling people NOT to drive isn't gonna work.

Attacking the result of the argument. The thesis was abortion causes emotional trauma in women.

You said to me, that two women committed suicide because of abortion, then you asked me if I was happy fuckface, if I recall correctly - very mature I must say.

But then I replied with, that people commit suicide for lots of reasons. Should we outlaw every reason people commit suicide of? If yes, then that is a valid argument, if no, then it is not a valid argument.

Illogical. Scientifically, the fundamental purpose of sexual intercourse is reproduction.

You said this: Reproduction is the only reason and main goal of sex

That is not true.

Invalid. Drifting from original argument. I was attacking you calling child rearing a punishment.

What??!

I don't give a damn what you were doing.

I said, that you should not punish a victim to a crime, punish the criminal.

Then you said, that just because a baby is conceived under rape, it can still be a blessing to its mother.

Then I said, that I never claimed, that a blessing can be given under rape is impossible. I think you are right, I think there are lots of mothers who are happy they didn't remove their baby, even if they were conceived under rape.

It is not in all cases though, that the mother is very happy about the baby.

In some cases, where a woman ends up pregnant after rape, she doesn't love the baby, she doesn't want it.

And you guys say, that people should know the consequence and blabla.. but in that case, she was a victim to a crime, and she shouldn't be raising a consequence of being in some crime as a victim.

Invalid argument. You can't claim premises on that which is imaginary.

Yes I can.

I was trying to put you in a situation, just like the pregnant woman, where the baby got conceived during rape. Just so you could understand her better.

Would you give birth to your fathers baby, meaning that your father raped you at the point, where the baby was conceived?

When I quoted you and wrote this: Did you listen to anything I said? Sex is to reproduce, but, you can use it for other purposes we all do.

I meant this: No No No, you have it wrong, the purpose of sex is to reproduce that is the only reason

And no matter what the reason your killing an innocent child.

Correction: Fetus.

I'm not ok with rape, I just know its not an excuse to kill children.

I didn't say you're okay with rape. But apparently you think it's okay to punish a person for being a victim to a crime.

You mention a lot that it is killing a child. You're right about killing, you're not right about child. Because if the 'baby' is less than 12 weeks old, it is not a kid, it is a human.

You can try and slant it to "oh woe is me, I'm trying to protect the mother" well your trying to kill a kid, that is that.

Oh woe is me, I'm trying to protect the mother?!?!?!?!? For God's sake, the woman just got raped. Isn't that enough trauma for one person?

Did you listen to anything I said? Sex is to reproduce, but, you can use it for other purposes we all do.

Yeah I did listen, and you didn't say that. Let me quote:

Did you listen to anything I said? Sex is to reproduce, but, you can use it for other purposes we all do.

You said reproduce is the ONLY reason for sex, that is why you have a sad life.

No the result is two different things. Condoms stop the egg from ever being fertelized, thus stoping the baby from being alive. If the egg is not fertelized than its NOT ALIVE, once it is though, than it is and an abortion is when you kill the fetus which is a alive. Understand?

Condoms stops the sperm to get in contact with the egg. The sperm is alive. If you wanna call a fetus a baby you might as well call all the sperm in your nuts 'all your children'. None of them are humans. First you're a sperm, then you're a fetus, then you're a human, then you're a corps.

Do you have any knowledge on this subject besides "what if you get raped?!?!?"

I thought the debate was about women who got raped.

Abortion is murder, a fetus is an unborn child not some left over product of sex that you own. Killing a fetus is killing a child, if you look at it in any scientific way you would understand this.

I am looking at this scientifically. Scientists say, that a 12 week old fetus is not a human.

And also, you can't say that a fetus is an unborn child. You have no proof of that it is going to be human some day. It is just a bunch of cells .. a meatball.

I didn't down vote. Someone else did. I haven't read it or had time to reply yet.

Well its not...aren't you more concerned about those people that have a abortions after unprotected sex?

No I'm not.

To me it doesn't matter how the fetus got there, and seriously, why is it relevant for you to know that?

What result? Describe to me the result and we'll see if its the same.

Well. With condoms.. you have no baby.

And with abortion, you don't have any baby either..

People DO realize that.

People wanna have sex, some don't want children.

So if you wanna stop abortion, then come up with a protection that is 200% secure. Otherwise you are just wasting your time.

You are a GENIUS!!!! why didn't anybody figure that out before?!?!?!?!?!

Well, your argument is only saying how bad my argument is.

Instead of saying negative things about it, why don't you stand up for your opinion and tell me what's wrong with mine?

Ah, so you're a troll. You can team up with Srom.

so because I agreed with you.. I become a troll?

I think I am allowed to say, that almost everyone who had sexual intercorse is aware of what sex can result.

What if I do take all the protection I need. The pill... condoms. What if I do all that. But protections can fail. What if I end up pregnant even after all those things. Aren't I allowed to get an abortion then, since I actually paid to not have children?

Of the millions of abortions that happen every year, do you honestly think this one situation is even significant enough to be arguing about?

Yeah I do think so.

This would be laughable, if not for abortion being such a morbid topic. Abortions take place after a child is conceived, while condoms or any other protection prevent that from even happening. If you call that the same, I would get help. Fast.

I didn't call it the same. I said the result is the same.

Of the millions of abortions that happen every year, do you honestly think this one situation is even significant enough to be arguing about?

Yeah I do think so.

This would be laughable, if not for abortion being such a morbid topic. Abortions take place after a child is conceived, while condoms or any other protection prevent that from even happening. If you call that the same, I would get help. Fast.

I didn't call it the same. I said the result is the same.

Alright first off rape and insets are terrible things, so what should you do? Punish the rapist/inset, not the kid.

you go ahead and do that. But no matter what you think you're doing, you are punishing an innocent woman, who've been raped not only physically, but also the raper fucked her mind up for life.

If you're okay doing that.. really I can't see why the world has become this.

So? Just cause something isn't conscious its not alive?

I didn't say that. I said the ''child'' is not a kid. It's a fetus, not a human. It has been scientifically proved, that a fetus isn't a human.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetus

It says there on the top, that on the 11th week of a pregnancy, the human stage starts.

I'm saying "what happened was fucked up, but the child did nothing, please, don't kill it"

You're saying to a raped woman: Hey, it was your rapist who committed a crime. His baby did nothing, so please be his mother.

You're saying that to a woman, who .. probably is never going to be the same just because of the rape. And then you can make yourself ASK her.. seriously, I would like you to ask a woman face to face, who just got raped by her father or something, to not kill the result of the crime, because of what?!?!?! Because the child didn't do anything? THE MOTHER DIDN'T DO ANYTHING EITHER except being a victim to a crime.

No No No, you have it wrong, the purpose of sex is to reproduce that is the only reason

You must have a sad sad life.

No, condoms and the day after pill are to very different things. Condoms stop the sperm from going into the vagina, thus making pregnancy almost impossible, day after pills kill the sperm before it fertelizes the egg, understand? Abortion is when you kill the baby after the egg has been fertelized and it is now alive. Contraception and abortion are two different things.

Yeah but the result is the same. No baby. You said yourself: So? Just cause something isn't conscious its not alive? A baby has a visible heart and lungs after a week or two, is that alive? There is do difference between killing a human and fetus because they are the same thing, just cause baby is in the womb or not conscious does not mean its not alive and has no right to life.

The sperm making a baby is alive. It is moving around. And blabla. The difference between me and you is, that you think that a sperm is not valuable for life .. me I think that it doesn't matter whether you kill a sperm or a fetus. The result is the same.

The drunk man kills another man, the woman kills a child, understand?

Well no actually. I thought we debated abortion her, not murder?

If your talking about a woman killing her child we're on a different debate.

I'm talking about women who kill fetuses, not children.

Again, regardless of the reason, your still killing a child.

See, this is where I have to say, that debating with you is pointless if you will continue saying fetuses are children. Sure. AFTER the fetus has become human, then it should be illegal to kill them.

But scientifically fetuses aren't human. That is scientifically proved, it was never scientifically proved, that black people weren't human.

Of course the diet soda can hurt your body, but so can the regular soda. It can give you diabetes and make you fat.

My dream vacation is to travel around the world.

If I could, I would touch every country on earth :D I looove to travel.

If you think that because the Father did something bad and the Mother doesn't want a child that she has the right to kill the child and that anyone who opposes it is "punishing" them than you are a sick person.

Imagine if you got raped. Imagine your father raped you, and you found out you were pregnant with your father's child.

I don't know if you would go through with it, but I gotta tell you I would NEVER ever do that. And forcing anybody to do such a sick thing is just SICK!!!

Explain that to me, it doesn't matter if its a rape, you punish the rapist no the child who didn't do anything.

It has been .. scientifically proved that a 12 weeks old fetus doesn't have any consciousness. A born baby does. So that's the difference between killing a fetus and killing a human being.

And your punishing the mother of the child. Your MAKING her have the baby of a man, who ruined her life. Imagine if you were forced to have the child of the man who .. seriously changed your whole life, in the most horrible ways.

Indisputably sex's main goal is re-production

to you maybe. Sex is a natural thing between two people. Sex stimulates a relationship. If the only reason you're having sex is to reproduce.. then I'm not even gonna have this debate with you.

If you are going to take that risk than take some birth control, makes sure the guy has condoms and keep someday after pills on hand just incase.

Lets say I did that. I take my birth controls, I use condoms.. I do everything. But they can fail. If I used all the protection I could, and still got pregnant, wouldn't I be allowed to take an abortion then, if I were responsible enough to try and prevent the pregnancy in the first place?

And why is it okay to use condoms, but not abortion.

The result is the same.

So a mother killing her child under the stress of having a child she shouldn't be punished as a a normal women? You don't seem to think so.

You are comparing a drunken person, killing another man, with a woman who's getting an abortion. How am I going to take that seriously?

the government should force them to stop.

That's a lovely politic you have going on there. I hope all the babies in your fantasy country are happy, since you know.. people who aren't financially, mentally, emotionally or physically ready for a child are being forced to have it.

it is really saying that you are lazy.

You got that right. I'm a lazy cow.

Second, this invalidates most of your argument because you missed a TON of items

Sorry

Repost when you have read the whole thing from top to bottom. Then I will consider that reply valid.

Well, don't expect that to happen any time soon.

but my argument is still valid, and if you don't want to dispute it, I'm considering myself as the winner of this debate.

Since when did my nickname turn out to be Birggy?!?!?!?! :p

Just because the child was conceived in rape doesn't mean the child can't be a blessing to the mother.

sorry :I kinda ironic don't ya think?

Personally I think you do a great job considering English isn't your first language.

thank you <3

No actually, I was about to start a debate about if there was something wrong with my arguments in general.

Because no matter WHAT side I'm on, I've tried everything. Fore abortion, against abortion, supporting homosexuals, not supporting homosexuals. God's side or the atheist side.

NO MATTER WHAT SIDE I'M ON... the disputes seem to be bigger on my argument than on the others. So it must be something wrong with them.

And I hardly get any supportives

First of all, I like to say, that your repost is so long, I don't have the energy to read it all, but I read around the headlines, so if I mess up something, sorry.

You are calling child raising a punishment!!??!! You are so sick I just want to vomit!!!

Well yeah.

Imagine you, imagine your father raped you.

Your father raped you, and you found out you were pregnant, and your own father was the father.

You probably would have the baby, I don't know.

But how about others. Do you wanna force other innocent women, to have their rapers children?

Just because the child was conceived in rape doesn't mean the child can't be a blessing to the mother.

I never said that was impossible. But in some cases, the woman isn't so blessed, and in those cases I think it is her right as an human being, to be able to remove the fetus.

Because we have distorted it to become what it isn't. If sex didn't feel good, humans wouldn't reproduce, but you have gone and distorted it's true purpose from reproduction to entertainment. If you think about it, that's pretty sick.

Well.. entertainment? I don't think of it as entertainment. Sex is stimulating a relationship between two people. It isn't just meant for reproduction, maybe you believe so, but I don't.

It has everything to do with whether she "wants" it or not. That's so sick . That's terrible. So what you saying is, just because your mother didn't want you, she should have had the right to abort you. Again, like I said, come around and I will perform a "late partial-birth abortion" on you for you since you are so f#cked up in the head as to be so selfish as not to protect the life of an unborn child.

well, if you read the first part of my first post, you see, that I said not every situation is selfish.

That means that I think SOME situations ARE selfish.

Two women I knew have COMMITTED SUICIDE because of this!!! IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT YOU SELFISH SHITHEAD? ARE YOU HAPPY NOW FUCKFACE? ARE YOU?

But about what you were saying.

Lots of people commit suicide.. for lots of reasons. Do you want every reason people make suicide to be outlawed?

Don't punish the child for the crimes of the father.

In a case like that, you're putting an innocent person, to be punished for 18 years for some crime the person was a victim to.

If you think that is fair.. you're a sick person.

So if a woman who had been raped and had given birth wanted to kill her child because it was a reminder of the crime, should she be allowed?

No, I don't think that should be allowed. That is called murder, not abortion.

Should a woman and a man be having sex in the first place if they are not financially secure?

Yes they should. Sex isn't just reproduction.

If someone gets drunk and kills someone while driving does that automatically mean he/she is free of charges because he/she was not all there mentally?

When did I ever say that? No, a person who kills someone while being drunk, should get the same punishment as a sober person.

People need to learn to be responsible. People are being less and less responsible and other people are having to take care of them and other people are having to pay the price.

This is what America has come down to.

Well.. I live in a country where abortion is illegal. I think it is stupid to force a woman to have a baby she doesn't want. I think it is stupid, that the government is forcing people to do things they don't want to do.

I once heard about a couple who were Jehova's Witnesses.

Their child needed blood, but because of their sick religion, the child died. Apparently Jehova's Witnesses can't recieve or give blood.. I don't know why.

I think Jehova's witnesses is the religion I hate the most, maybe Islam tops the list.. but I don't know.

Every human on earth should be given the choice to believe something or not.

That is true for some situation. It is FAR from true in all situations.

A woman who has been raped for example, is NOT removing a consequence of selfish actions. First of all, the baby isn't a consequence in that situation. It is a result of a crime.

It can also be done because of financial causes.

Also you need to know, that an abortion is not something you just .. do.

An abortion is not good for yourself either. There is a chance you're gonna be sterilized for life.

Some women HAVE to do it, not because they want to, and trust me when I say, that VERY VERY few women WANT to take abortions.

I would say myself.

Unlike some christians on this site, I'm supporting abortion (not totally, depends on which situation) and homosexuals and I don't believe in any place called Hell.

It's necessary for testing medicins and stuff.

I have nothing against animal testing, if it is for a good reason. Like finding a cure for cancer and all kinds of different diseases or illnesses.

But when it comes to beauty stuff.. testing perfume and whatever they do to those poor little animals is horrible and shouldn't be done EVER.

Read it again, carefully.

I've only been here for like.. two months so I don't consider myself as an old user.

that's what I said.

First of all... who cares?

second of all.. seriously WHO CARES?!?!?!?

That depends on what kind of teaching you're talking about.

Religion is a huge part of history. If you wanna teach history.. you can't ignore the religion part.

If you mean teaching as in.. teaching a certain religion as the absolute truth. THEN it is brainwashing.

But I like learning about religion.. all religions.

The typical excuse.

If I said something dirty, and someone complained (not that I complained before) And then I defended myself with: hey, I can't help it i am a woman... no one would take me seriously.

you naughty little bastars :) ..............................

What are you not against? .................................

It's not that it's not a good plan.

I just wonder why you say there is two groups they have to fight.

The homophobic people in the government are usually religious. There is only one group you'll need to fight, it is the religious. Once you did that, .. there is nothing left.

I mean - can you give me an example of a man/woman who's against homosexuals getting married, who is not religious?

The only argument I can find that would support an atheist who's against homosexuals is 'they can't reproduce'.

But then they'd also have to be against women who reached menopause and women or men who are infertile getting married.

Also they have to be against all kinds of protection.

We think we don't need evidence, you think you don't need bible verses.

A christian and an atheist can't debate .. I mean it's pointless because what I define as truth is so much far from what an atheist does.

No, I'm saying theist don't need evidence to believe something, just like atheist don't need bible verses to believe something.

When it comes to taste, milk chocolate is definitely the winner.

But when it comes to what is better for you, I pick dark chocolate.

Some studies show, that dark chocolate can cure a bunch of diseases like cancer.

Although I don't have any evidence of that. That's just something I wrote in a newsletter, so don't get all fired up please.

But dark chocolate is just generally healthier for you, as it is not as rich in fat or carbs/sugar than white or milk chocolate does.

I voted dark chocolate. NOT white chocolate. I hate everything about white chocolate. Tastes like cheese.

I think every person existing thinks of himself as above average. No one wants to think of themselves as a person below average.

Yeah, I googled debating site - this one popped up, and I thought what the hell?!

I really like debating. I like fighting, with words as my weapon.

My friends do not share this 'hobby' or what you call it, so why not CD? :)

We don't have grass on our roof.

You are ridiculously weird in a funny way :)

A story can make you a better person even though it isn't true.

Once there was boy who lied to his mother. Then he had to be punished, because he disobeyed his parents. His punishment was, that he would take care of the pigs in the pigpen. It was very gross in there, and he did not like this job.

He begged his mother to let him go, he promised that he would never ever lie again.

So the mother let him go, and since then the little boy never told another lie.

What did we learn from that really boring story I just wrote? You shouldn't lie.

Therefore you just made yourself a better person by reading a story which wasn't real.

Haha, what I meant was that men typically have to pay for the food.

Women tend to take care of the rest ;) but I grew up with that my dad cooked the food, and my mom cleaned up after him afterwards :p

No, a woman should be given 1 year of maternity leave. If she wants to do that of course.

Where I live, children are forced into kindergarten as 9 months old - and that is so terrifying. They're babies for god's sake.

I can't remember where, but it is in a european country (can you name it?) where they have 2 years of maternity leave.

I admire that, I think that is the maternity leave we should work on getting, because that's what children diserve. Of course it will do something to the working market and stuff. But .. I don't know. I just think a child should be braught to this world the right way, and that is not by putting it into kindergarten as a newborn.

How about cheerleading?

They are also put in small costumes and it's probably the perverts fantasy land.

Basketball, badminton .. you name a sport for women were they aren't wearing tiny clothes.

Are all those sports detrminetal for children? Should we ban them to save them from the horror of being looked at by people?

To compete on who is looking better, is not worse for a kid than compete who's doing better in fx. sports or musical competitions.

Well women have it rough of several reasons. But to chose from hipbone or pizza is not one of them.

Those are temptations, that you can easily ignore if you are a strong woman, and are serious about being healthy.

1. Women have it rough because every month we're shitting blood for a week.

2. The average woman gives birth to three children. When a woman has a kid, she will only with seriously hard work achieve a flat stomach again. A woman who've had three children - will probably never achieve it again.

3. Women are the most likely to be the weaker link in a relationship. Because of that men are naturally stronger than women, they are the most likely to be beaten up in a violent relationship.

4. In a typical relationship, when a couple has a kid - the woman is the most likely person to stop her career and take care of the child until it's old enough to enter kindergarten.

5. Even though most people say 'I dont care about looks, it is all about what is inside' - that is most likely a lie. I doubt that many men would date a fat, ugly dressed girl with pimples everywhere, undone hair with no make-up at all. I'm not saying no men would.

But even though men don't force us to look good, we think that we have to look good. It's in our nature to look good.

It's our constant obsession, and it is not a fun obsession. Especially when you like a woman, constantly see everything bad with your self.

Which brings me to number 6.

Women constantly see bad things with ourself.

We look in the mirror and we see the fat girl I described above. which tears down our self esteem.

I'm not saying that girls are living a horror movie, while men are in fantasy land.

Men have it rough too, but on seriously different levels than women.

1. Men are typically the figure who has to bring food on the table, it's in his nature, and if he can't achieve this, he will feel like a loser. Even though now days, the women usually participate in getting food, it is still in some ways the man's job.

2. Even though men have outer strength, women have a very larger amount of inner strength. A man can physically tear a woman down, while a woman can mentally tear down a man. The woman is usually the typical person to have the biggest vote on decisions they have to make together.

3. Men are extremely sensitive on a particular spot of the body. This can easily be taken as a weapon by the woman. Not only that. Having fun with friends, playing football or something is putting a man in constant danger of being hit in that very place.

I've heard that those pains can be worse than childbirth.

4. Some say, that if a single woman earns 800 amonth$, and a single man earns 1200$ - if they got married the man would have 0$ and the woman would have 2000$.

Women are typically the person in a relationship who takes care of how they spend their money and on what.

5. Since there are several more male school dropouts than female, this makes the average male IQ lower than a females. Which makes women the more clever gender on this earth. And that is not good for a man's pride.

With number 5 I want to say, that one of the greatest minds on earth were male, like Einstein, Isaac Newton and I could go on.

This argument has nothing to do with anything. I'm just really bored.

Well, I'm not saying that Americans 'hate' all other countries. I'm not saying other countries hate them either.

What I meant was, that some americans think, that an average american is an average human on earth if you get what I mean?

Yeah okay but how about Hitler's soldiers, who died serving him?

Oooh :p

There is no golf field anywhere on the Islands :o) not even putting greens.

I don't understand, what do you mean!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!

Trust me when I say this Joe. To fall of a roof is not the worst thing you might encounter of in the Islands.

To have grass on the roof is kind of an old thing. Something they did in the 1800-1930 or so.

There are very few houses that are built after 1970, that have grass on the roof.

Therefore there is a very small percentage of people, who have to mow their roof.

The houses you linked, are houses built in the early 1900 or late 1800. I doubt anyone mow those roofs considering that probably no one lives there and that the roof looks terrible on that picture.

But when you stand on a roof, it's not different than if you stand on a mountain on the Faroe Islands. They are the same shape.

But more and more people nowdays get grass on they're roof. It has become fashionable again.

About how many fall of, I have never heard of such an incident.