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lol. I might previously have cut the Christians a break on the basis that the New Testament is more about peace and love and tolerance, but the Christian-boosters on this site have shouted me down basically insisting the New Testament is lots of fire and brimstone and do it or else wham-o! So if I then accept the New Testament is fire and brimstone, and combine that with the historical record of Crusades, Inquisitions, Conquistador Missionaries, and even the more local contemporary pressures which I feel more often from the evangelical Christians I know than the Muslims I know (and yes I do know Muslims, through work in the city), then I'd have to say all in all the Christian religion is the more violent.
If you want to know why many of us think (know) that the Catholic Church is one of the most loathsome and evil institutions in the history of the world...here's a nice little list of just a few of some real sweetheart Popes.
Are we counting the Hebrews of the early Bible stories because they were just going from city to city killing everything and everyone. You should have put the Hebrews in as a separate category as in the early days of written history they killed anyone who they perceived as different.
They're all nasty if ruled as a theocracy, but Islam is off the charts with its baseness and how it elevates a pedophile to the status of prophet and considers him the "perfect man", a man who pioneered the concept of thighing.
Since Christians don't kill that would explain why the USA is made up of mostly Christians through history and were so proficient at killing that we were and are the most feared nation when it comes to military prowess. Our Christian nation is the only nation to ever use an atomic bomb to kill 100,000 of people all at once. Good thing Christians don't Kill, LOL
The most violent of religions in our history is humanism. In it's lifting up of man as being his own God, this sick religion has supported murdering tens of millions of unborn Babies, simply to eliminate a so called burden created by their own choices.
If God killed any born babies, it was done so to stop evil and save multiples millions of future babies. I don't argue with God for what he does, he created us all, he can take our lives if he deems necessary.
I am arguing with complete hypocrites who deny the halocaust of babies here and now today when they pretend to be the compassionate ones.
If God killed any born babies, it was done so to stop evil and save multiples millions of future babies. I don't argue with God for what he does, he created us all, he can take our lives if he deems necessary.
Gotta love how Christians defend their homicidal god.
Gotta love how idiot pro choice men support the halocuast of millions of babies and then have the hypocritical nerve to judge God for killing some in war.
Can I ask you some questions? I simply want your view on the subject. I won't argue with you. If a woman is diagnosed with terminal cancer after the first trimester of her pregnancy and the cancer treatment will kill the baby, what would you suggest be done in that case? Have her get the abortion then get treatment, or get the treatment and see if the baby survives, or just wait it out and try to survive long enough to give birth then get treatment. Would an abortion in that situation be for the life of the mother? The pregnancy itself is not threatening the woman, but not getting the treatment is. Just curious since I wouldn't have any idea what someone like you thinks.
You STILL do not know what I believe? If a woman's life is in danger, it is up to her and her doctor what should happen. It would be a very hard decision to make. FOR THE BILLIONTH TIME, I have no problem with life of mother abortions, yet STILL people keep using that ludicrous excuse to try and allow all abortions.
When there is only one life that can be saved, I leave it up to the mother and doctor which one, or what the chances are if both would die, or the chances of both living, etc.
Now when it comes to the buzz word "health" of mother, this is where the pro abortion deceivers will push that word over "life" of mother. You see, health of mother can mean anything such as depression, etc. etc. This is why the Democrats wanted "health" of mothers exception for partial birth abortions which would allow all abortions if the woman simply says she is depressed over the pregnancy.
Ok, so it doesn't have to be the actual pregnancy that is a threat to the mother. It can be anything threatening the life of the mother that the pregnancy is in the way of. I needed to sort that out since I am trying to avoid the situations that you are ok with.
Honestly, I never gave the crusades that much thought. I accepted the Crusades were a Christian/Catholic dark time in history that I didn't know much about.
But it occurred to me.
Maybe it was greed, or a display of self righteous bullying by the west, Or maybe
something more.
What started this intense western focus and involvement to begin with that signaled out these Muslim occupied areas during the crusades?
There's always 2 sides to a story.
1 side one of this story of Crusades is ignored.
Not to excuse the outcome or behavior of the west, but, still note worthy.
The Christians elevation to the level of brutal force as described during history of the crusades was not standard behavior, and not characteristic of Christian conversions, with possibly some indepenent extremist, but still, overall, not "characteristic" of Christian conversions.
In contrast, Islam growth is characteristic of brutal force, demanding conversions, and threatening western civilization, their way of life, along with their religious beliefs.
Is it possible, at least initially and for some part of the crusades, that western aggression began as a defensive reaction in order to combat the threat of brutal violent takeover in neighboring countries, with threats growing against western religious beliefs?
And, is this is even more applicable in todays current climate when comparing the radicalization of Islam vs the radicalization of other religions
You don't seem to realize that the "west" you are referring to was anything east of Portugal and west of what is now Iran, Iraq and Syria and north of Africa as far as the Crusades is concerned. (i.e. Europe) Much of which had been "taken over" earlier BY these eastern countries! East took over west, west drove them out and tried to take over east, now east AND west are at it again! Will be until one religion kills off the other ....or they blow up the world trying!
Until religions are discarded, there will ALWAYS be "two sides to the story"! Fighting over the same "god", because MAN wrote different versions of "HIS WORD" (to facilitate power over the masses)! BOTH lean on the 'Alleged teachings" of Jesus, both disagree on what HE was, what HE said. HE is the most important in Christianity, the second most important in Islam. The "Son of God" in Christianity, a prophet in Islam! (meaning "God and Allah are one and the same)! It's the man made doctrine that differs, and until this is discarded as trouble making trash, the trouble will continue, as before, for century after century after century!
James Madison wrote: "During 15 centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been the fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indulgence in the clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity. In both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." The other side has done no better! Religion causes us to hate others we would normally NOT hate! They have failed to bring peace, they are the largest causes of death the world has ever seen.
What about the Atheist ............ When Christopher Hitchens observes that .. “Religion is violent .. irrational .. intolerant .. allied to racism and tribalism and bigotry .. invested in ignorance and hostile to free inquiry .. contemptuous of women and coercive toward children" .. he is both right and wrong . . . . . Hitchens is right because humankind is sinful and selfish .. Indeed .. I believe it was G.K. Chesterton who said that the one Christian doctrine that was demonstrably provable .. even to casual observers .. was the sinfulness and depravity of man .. Thus .. human expressions of the religious impulse will inevitably produce some religious practices and beliefs that would fit Hitchens’ rather grim description . . . . Human history is replete with such flawed expressions of religious faith
.
However . . this would be true of all secular philosophies and ideologies as well .. Three of the most heinous and barbaric ideologies .. which produced the greatest cruelties and violations of humanity in the 20th century .. were fascism .. Nazism and communism . . . . all secular
.
Hitchens is wrong in that he condemns all religious expression to the category of such violent and negative expressions . . . Many of the noblest expressions of humanity throughout the centuries have been performed in the name of religion . . . One thinks of William Wilberforce and his long campaign to end the slave trade in the British Empire . . . Both the British and American abolitionist movements were founded .. nurtured .. financed and led to victory against the horrific evil of slavery by people who were most often inspired and motivated by deep religious conviction
.
The great social reform movements of the last half of the 19th and the first half of the 20th century ( child labor reform .. etc ) were often led by people of deep religious faith .. Protestant and Catholic
.
And of course .. in the lifetime of many of us who were born in the last half of the 20th century .. the most successful and greatest reform movement was the civil rights revolution .. led by a Baptist minister .. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr .. who often said that the movement and the faith that inspired it could not be separated . . . As many will remember .. the civil rights revolution was supported by and led to victory in large part because of the leadership of clergy .. black and white
.
Lastly .. one is led to ask Mr. Hitchens some questions ..
.
• Where are the great atheist-sponsored charitable and reform movements ?
.
• Where are the atheist children homes and orphanages ? ( no .. the government will not count )
.
• Where are the atheist leaders who are taking vows of poverty and giving themselves in sacrificial service to others ?
.
As Arthur C. Brooks .. professor at Syracuse University .. points out in his recent book .. Who Really Cares ? (2006): Religious people are far more generous with their own time and money than secularists .. Brooks concludes .. “Religious folks are by far the most charitable people in America today”
The first part of your statement is erroneous: atheism, in under no linguistic interpretation of the word, is not, cannot, and never will be a 'religion'.
Atheism doesnt have an ideology. It is simply a lack of belief in gods. Thats it. No ideology no doctrine required.
Secular does not mean atheistic. They are not the same thing. Secular just means it wasnt religious in nature. That doesnt mean its atheisticly DRIVEN. It just means that the movement wasnt religious in nature. Which is true however it was ideologically driven and those ideologies are NOT tied to atheism at all. The driving force of nazism wasnt atheism it was fascism.
Atheism is not a religious ideology it is living in the real world accepting the truth without imaginary beings. If you have a group of people with an imaginary being to worship that is an ideology or a religion.
The chief Fascist considered himself a Christian. He talks not unlike many on this site
"Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent Creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise."
"I believe today that my conduct is with the will of the Almighty Creator."
Just a couple of lines from Mein Kampf He was a "believer, as anyone can be. He was as much of a Christian in his own mind as many on Create Debate. Believing in "the Lord" doesn't make you a good person, and YOUR interpretation of the "Word" isn't necessarily any better than his. There are numerous scumbags that "believed" they were following HIS way ... because it's ALL "hearsay"! I can't follow a "boss" that never "comes to the floor" and makes his wishes known, in no uncertain terms. THAT'S leadership. That's why I am an Atheist. Anyone who wants to follow a list of instruction that came from "anyone" can be a Christian, like Hitler.
Yeah all those Atheist wars were so bloody and violent. When the atheists crusaded to retake the unholy land, that was just awful. When the church of atheism subjugated all the believers and beheaded anyone who opposed their rule that was just terrible. When atheisms holy doctrine was used to justify things like slavery in the american south that was horrible.
Well seeing as how the South during the Civil War was OVERWHELMINGLY christian thats a pretty bullshit argument. Its also factually untrue. Evolution doesnt say white people are more evolved than black people. Any evolutionary biologist will tell you that modern black and white people are the same exact thing. Were equally "evolved" because were both homo sapien sapiens.
What atheists were making this argument? Can you name one single prominent atheist at the time that made that argument? Im pretty sure it was all the Christians that took their bibles and used verses that condone slavery in the bible to support what they were doing. Christians even argued that god made black people black as a punishment so it was ok to enslave them.
Sure people also took christianity and used it to argue against slavery as well. But doesnt that go to show how useless the bible is as a source of morality? I mean even on something as simple as whether slavery is wrong or not people were able to find verses to support it and dispute it. Which are correct? Who knows? Theres no clear moral answer from the text. And its supposed to be the source of all morality? It seems pretty damn unclear.
That is not true. Most of the slave owners were Christian and part of their argument was that owning slaves was their "God given right" as the Bible stated.
Okayyy? So you link a source attributing the crusades to the muslims and then another source that details the conflicts between catholics, jews, and muslims. How exactly does this show that atheists were responsible for the crusades?
Secular means non Christian now? That's news to me.
They weren't technically Christians because they didn't follow the teachings of Jesus, but they fought under the idea that Jesus wanted them to. They were not Atheists either way.
what NT scripture did they use to justify their murder
I just fucking told you that they didn't follow the teachings of Jesus. Can you not read, or are you just dumb?
PS: Nazis much closer to your ideology than mine INDEED
False. Christians are more likely to hate people who don't believe what they believe, and think they can get away with committing sins as long as they repent. Nazis definitely closer to Christianity.
the judgement for my sin/s are behind me (at the cross of Jesus) ... your await you (the great white throne Judgement) Rev 20 .... you should go and learn of your final eternal fate ... not good
I'm not, I'm actually very open to it and was raised Christian. Frankly, I enjoy debating Christian theology and find it interesting, though very troubling (for the same reasons as all religions of Abraham).
Now instead of a poorly attempted deflection, why not actually answer why you are so insecure regarding atheism.
There isn't a debate to win with you, though. That's the point.
You've already said you don't come here to debate. You clearly haven't participated in a debate. So it is true that I cannot win, because there isn't one to win.
It's true that I can't win at proselytizing, however. But that's because 1. I don't have anything to proselytizing, and 2. I don't go to debate websites to angrily and offensively push a cause.
w i l l f u l l y . i g n o r a n t ......... The minimum argument length is 50 characters. The purpose of this restriction is to cut down on the amount of dumb jokes, so we can keep the quality of debate and discourse as high as possible.The minimum argument length is 50 characters. The purpose of this restriction is to cut down on the amount of dumb jokes, so we can keep the quality of debate and discourse as high as possible.The minimum argument length is 50 characters. The purpose of this restriction is to cut down on the amount of dumb jokes, so we can keep the quality of debate and discourse as high as possible.The minimum argument length is 50 characters. The purpose of this restriction is to cut down on the amount of dumb jokes, so we can keep the quality of debate and discourse as high as possible.The minimum argument length is 50 characters. The purpose of this restriction is to cut down on the amount of dumb jokes, so we can keep the quality of debate and discourse as high as possible ....................... this is why the dots ... am I the only one who gets this stupid flag ??
"Men never commit evil so fully and joyfully as when they do it for religious convictions" Blaise Pascal (Physicist and religious philosopher).
As shown by ISIS, the "Christian" witch hunters, , the churches of the middle ages, the "Crusaders", the "cults" in our mid west, etc.
No, it wasn't Christianity that freed the "black slaves", it was human compassion! MOST of the "slavers" went to church on Sunday, They were Southern Baptists and Southern Methodists, even Catholics. There were FEW in that area who could hold their heads up in their community if they were not seen in church on Sunday!!